Community Notice [PLEASE READ!]

You can't force politeness or respect. I just wanted to speak this again. Now there are things mods can do to encourage these things and there side effects of discussion. I believe they have done will do and are currently doing. Keep it up you guys we love you. However I feel most of this is a personal problems and we shouldn't have to make a special option to avoid things like this. There is a reason no one hears a lot from me on most things and frankly this is why. But I chose to just not speak. I'm not complaining about this its just the choice I made for myself.
Now, I feel bad someone got pulled apart so much she felt she had to leave and I do also agree about not having to rely on a thick skin here among places. But, this isn't just a board problem this is a problem I have in all areas of my life. I'm sure the mods will think of a way to keep peace but I feel this is more of a personal issue than anything else. I'm only sorry I have no real solutions for you only an opinion. We all have to find our own ways to cope I guess.

But I will note one more thing. Momo can make even an issue cute.


-V

My view on the matter is simple really.
I, personally, have never purposely "loaded" a question and I try my very best, when I speak, to say exactly and only what I mean. There's of course a flaw in that for me that I am not the most eloquent person out there. I know that english being my second language out of three, and my generally "to the point" nature, isn't an excuse or always productive, but that is why I try and make my posts as simple and emotion-free as I can. I find it however somewhat frustrating when people add emotion to my posts when I go out of my way to leave my personal feelings at the door most of the time. It's hard to type something up with a comfortable smile on my face, half watching Top Gear and simply asking out of honest curiocity, only to have people (who may or may not be involved in the conversation at all) insult me and/or ask me to calm down. Only faltered once, apologized and gave my reason to a mod in the thread, and then left that subject be.
When the person I've been talking to and asking questions of asks me to stop, I do.
Personally, I am of the persuasion that the only really polite way to ask questions is to leave personal thoughts and emotions at the door. I do not think that there's anything nice or polite or productive about asking a question that is bogged down in apologies.

I find the words kittens and interrogators to be a little inaccurate, but I'll roll with it. I don't think that the kittens are a problem per say. I do see a thing with the interrogators but I don't see them chew the kittens up half as much as they do each others. X asks questions in one thread, and Y takes offence, asking back and turning it into a fight, the kittens get caught in the middle or pushed out of the thread rather than anything else. Or at least that's the way I've been seeing it go.
I will name no names but there are certain people that just seem to like butting heads.

I don't really see it as a productive ranking system, seeing as "nicely" is relative, and no questions at all aren't all that productive either.

It might be more productive to remind people of the finer points of communication. Such as;
-It's quite alright to tell the person you're talking to that you are offended, that it's too much, and that you'd like them to stop. Most, almost all, listen when asked to stop, and if they don't then you can always report them.
-It's completely pointless to repeatedly argue the same point every time a new person joins a discussion. This is a forum, they can read what you posted yesterday, and it'll only result in people debating the exact same point, again, and if it's repeated often enough then people will just end up pissed.
-The mods are here for a reason, you can report to them when you think a conversation is getting out of hand, you don't have to step in and start arguing aggressively yourself. It doesn't "save" anyone, it only compounds the problem.
You know, little things like these.
Some might think they'd be "common sense" and "common courtesy" but courtesy and sense are quite the subjective topics.
And seeing as these things are so subjective and sometimes easily overlooked, perhaps the members would feel more secure with more defined rules?

Freetha Wrote:It might be more productive to remind people of the finer points of communication. Such as;
-It's quite alright to tell the person you're talking to that you are offended, that it's too much, and that you'd like them to stop. Most, almost all, listen when asked to stop, and if they don't then you can always report them.
-It's completely pointless to repeatedly argue the same point every time a new person joins a discussion. This is a forum, they can read what you posted yesterday, and it'll only result in people debating the exact same point, again, and if it's repeated often enough then people will just end up pissed.
-The mods are here for a reason, you can report to them when you think a conversation is getting out of hand, you don't have to step in and start arguing aggressively yourself. It doesn't "save" anyone, it only compounds the problem.

Quoted for truth. Maybe a sticky on the finer points of communication is needed in addition to the rules? Just a thought.

~ Ashaiel

I think the main thing here, is that if the general social dynamic of the forum turns into an overall adversarial one - then the point of the community has failed.

As far as I knew, we were here for comraderie and for discussion. For common ground and the tools to explore it. Not to pick each other apart, attack each other's views and make asses of ALL of us.

If that becomes the new goal here, I won't be sticking around for it.

If you role here is "interrogator" I'd rather you leave. I have no problem with people asking questions, provided they're either (A) actually looking for answer FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT, or (B) Trying to start an interesting discussion about a topic.

If the whole point of your line of questioning is just to INTERROGATE someone, pick them apart, explore all their secrets and, eventually, pass judgement on them...then GTFO, imo.

Same with Kittens. GTFO. If all you're here for is just to go "Lookit me! I R t3h otherkinz!" and hope everyone else revells in your cute fairy-princess-ness, I don't think you belong here.

Just my opinion, though.

Xanthus Wrote:I think the main thing here, is that if the general social dynamic of the forum turns into an overall adversarial one - then the point of the community has failed.

As far as I knew, we were here for comraderie and for discussion. For common ground and the tools to explore it. Not to pick each other apart, attack each other's views and make asses of ALL of us.

Differemt people have different goals. I am certainly not here for camaraderie or to find common ground. I am here to discuss otherkin related topics, pure and simple.

I do not think there is a single catch-all reason explaining why everyone is here.

Quote:If the whole point of your line of questioning is just to INTERROGATE someone, pick them apart, explore all their secrets and, eventually, pass judgement on them...then GTFO, imo.

I do not believe anyone here is doing this. I do however think one of the issues is that the kittens sometimes interpret direct questioning as someone trying to pick them apart and pass judgment on them.

Quote:Same with Kittens. GTFO. If all you're here for is just to go "Lookit me! I R t3h otherkinz!" and hope everyone else revells in your cute fairy-princess-ness, I don't think you belong here.

Likewise I do not believe this is an accurate description of kittens, and again I do not think anyone else is doing here. I believe the term means something more along the lines of "people who are here primarily for camaraderie and acceptance, and who dislike being on the receiving end of too many direct questions."

the words "kittens" and "interrogators" are exaggerated. i chose "kittens" because they look for a warm and cozy place. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

i believe it's good that we can talk about these things here, why they happen and everything. i have read some very good points here, hopefully everyone reads this and thinks about those things.

Archer Wrote:

Xanthus Wrote:As far as I knew, we were here for comraderie and for discussion. For common ground and the tools to explore it. Not to pick each other apart, attack each other's views and make asses of ALL of us.

Differemt people have different goals. I am certainly not here for camaraderie or to find common ground. I am here to discuss otherkin related topics, pure and simple.

I think you only read half of what I put there. I put the other half in bold for you.
EDIT: underlined it, too, because the bold wasn't very....bold.

Archer Wrote:I do not think there is a single catch-all reason explaining why everyone is here.

That, imo, is a problem. If it comes down the fact that there is NO coherent purpose to this community, that every person here is trying to get conflicting things out of it, that wee all jockey against each other to satisfy our own conflicting agendas, I think, simply, that this will fall apart.

Sure different people may have different internal compasses and that they may persue different things here, but overall, we need a common "direction" and a common set of social agreements here to abide by or the who thing devolves into chaos (no offense meant to the chaos beings present here).

It's a term in the study of such things called "social contract". So far, the admins have crafted our social contract via forum rules. And rule #1 is be polite and respectful. I don't see that happening. I see people being polite and respectful, until it's no longer convient to do so, then it all goes out the window, there's a huge drama/flame war and people quit the forum.

That needs to stop, or eventually there will be nothing left worth anything here, imo.

I don't even know why there is a discussion about this. So far everyone here has not only read, but, mostly, responded with agreement to these listed rules. They start being trampled on and now we're discussing, "So, what about that?" Seems more than a little wishy-washy, to me.

I voted for a field regarding sensitivity. Mainly because I think it is more of the way the question is asked, than what is asked, and I want the opportunity to choose my words carefully if the situation requires it, since it's difficult for me to read a person's temperament from text.

On the flipside, I'd like to be able to specify if there are certain things I'm sensitive about. I consider myself to be about moderate when it comes to questioning. I'll answer anything if it's worded politely, but there's a catch. I get annoyed after about the fourth time a person asks a series of questions on the same specific thing. My reasons for this are twofold. One is it's hardwired. Any more than a certain number of questions and I feel like someone's trying to get information that I might not necessarily want to give out, and I lock down all communication in an attempt to preserve the information, whether that info actually exists in such a state or not. The second reason is, if I've tried to answer the question clearly that many times, and it still hasn't went through, I begin to wonder if I'm wasting my time trying.

My 2cents. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s -->

Xanthus Wrote:I think you only read half of what I put there. I put the other half in bold for you.
EDIT: underlined it, too, because the bold wasn't very....bold.

No, I read it all but only quoted the part relevant to what I was responding to.

Quote:That, imo, is a problem. If it comes down the fact that there is NO coherent purpose to this community, that every person here is trying to get conflicting things out of it, that wee all jockey against each other to satisfy our own conflicting agendas, I think, simply, that this will fall apart.

It is my experience that medium to large internet communities can and do work absolutely fine even with members having differing requirements from that community. All that is required is for people to understand that their wants and needs are not the same as everyone else's.

Quote:It's a term in the study of such things called "social contract". So far, the admins have crafted our social contract via forum rules. And rule #1 is be polite and respectful. I don't see that happening. I see people being polite and respectful, until it's no longer convient to do so, then it all goes out the window, there's a huge drama/flame war and people quit the forum.

As I have said, when people report a post or member for being disrespectful or impolite - or when the staff see something potentially questionable but there is no report - we sit and discuss it to see if there is anything we need to do, and if so, what.

There are very, very, very few reports. It strikes me that what is happening is that you, personally, see a lot of things as impolite and disrespectful, don't make the staff aware of them, and are then bothered by all the perceived rule breaking. Other people, on the other hand, do not necessarily see rules being broken at all.

What you see as huge drama and flamewars, other people see as heated discussion and people not being friends. Speaking entirely for myself I do not have a problem with that, and speaking entirely for myself if a member wants to leave then yes, that's sad, but this forum cannot please all of the people all of the time and if it tries to promote an atmosphere of everyone getting along, that's an extreme that a lot of people are not comfortable with.

I think most people would agree there needs to be a happy medium between "everyone getting along" and "everyone constantly arguing". Some people think the current level is fine, some thing it's too nice and fluffy, some think it's too unpleasant and argumentative.

The purpose of this thread is to find out what the members think, as well as a few ideas for changing it - if change is needed. From what I can gather - and I apologise for oversimplifying - your position is that there are rules in place but they are not being followed, and you would like them to be more strictly enforced. That's a valid point - but it will require people to make the staff aware of specific instances of perceived rule breaking, rather than a general "someone has a bad attitude".

Quote:So far everyone here has not only read, but, mostly, responded with agreement to these listed rules. They start being trampled on and now we're discussing, "So, what about that?" Seems more than a little wishy-washy, to me.

There is a discussion because not everyone agrees the rules are being trampled on. For those that do believe the rules are being trampled on, "what to do about it" is very relevant. Some options have been raised - one is reminding members (both the evil bastards and the fluffbunnies, if I may exaggerrate) not to get so annoyed at the other side. Another is to make a formal category of "argue with me more" or "argue with me less". Another is for members to make staff more aware of problems, so that we can actually look into them.

I voted yes for the "Sensitivity to Questioning", but I don't see how that is going to help the issue here - lack of respect.