Community Notice [PLEASE READ!]

Members, please pay close attention to this. You are encouraged to give feedback, and let us know your thoughts.

Now, recently on OKP, the admins and moderators have noticed a general tension across our members. A few members are arguing, or retaliating, and we've been getting PMs from people who have been stung by this. We know real life and other issues will play a part, but could someone please explain the attitude? It isn't really needed, as it upsets the members and angers the staff.

It seems there is two divided groups on the forums; described by a theory that Kahoku came up with - "interrogators vs. kittens".

The interrogators ask questions and are very straightforward, and seem to be a lot more forward than the 'kittens'. The kittens are shyer, look for a place that's warm and cuddly, and may be more shaken by the interrogators' attitudes. Conflict arises when an interrogator questions a kitty; not worrying about blunt words, just as long as the query is understood. The kitty might be shaken by such words, and tries to answer the questions the best it can. However, if the question is not answered fully or if there is an imprecise term, the interrogators push on ahead with their questions. The interrogators feel that they are not being offensive, just asking honest questions, but the kitty feels like the word "fluff!" is being shouted at them. This results in retaliations, and arguing.

I realise my wording of the theory sounds exaggerated, and please do not take offence - but situations similar to that ARE going on here, guys.

So, we're going to go over two points that could help clear this up:

1. If you are being offended by a discussion, please be mature and leave the discussion quietly. If a certain member is bothering you - alert a member of staff with a detailed PM on what offended you and why. We really do not need drama posts and ticked-off members storming out. If you no longer wish to be a part of this discussion, politely bow out and leave. If there is a noticeable problem throughout the thread going on, the staff will step in. You don't have to read updates of the post, or anything. Just let it be.

2. An idea discussed by the staff is to have a new profile option stating your attitude/sensitivity to questions regarding your kinship/spiritual path/anything that was raised in the Hot Seat thread. There is a "Question me", "Question me nicely", and "Don't question". We decided to ask our members, and the resulting verdict will decide if we have this new feature.

Thank you very much for your time.

~ The OKP Administrators and Moderators

Personally, I think either extreme is unproductive. If you have a forum full of people with no tact, no compassion, that just let whatever stream of verbal refuse fly from their mouth that they want, with no regard to common courtesy or rules, that's bad.

If you've got a forum full of little fluffies, chinchillas from outer space and flying rainbow unicorns and they all have a happy teaparty, well...I'm going to vomit.

Really, I think it all just comes back to rule NUMBER ONE of the forum. That's right, the first goddamn rule on the list. BE POLITE (paraphrase).

I don't mind anyone asking any question of me here (and I don't think anyone's left just cuz they've been asked something - if so, don't let the door hit ya). I think the issue here is more HOW people ask, and the reactions of both the questioner and the answerer.

Person A start a thread.
Person B 'asks' a question, which is probably loaded, completely devoid of tact and on the whole not polite at all.
Person A gets defensive.
Person B pokes more.
Person A retaliates.
Person B and 2-3 of B's friends start flaming.
Person A and a few friends start flaming back.
*Tactless BBQ ensues*

I don't believe that we should only be questioned of our beliefs in the Hot Seat. However, we SHOULD be able to say the degree to which we are willing to be interrogated.

I voted "I don't care either way" only because I can see both sides of the issue, and am unsure where I stand.

On the one hand, I believe that someone shouldn't be left alone if they have outlandish claims. A couple of little things that don't add up -- fine. I'm sure I have a couple of beliefs, maybe more, that aren't congruent with each other. But if it's getting ridiculous, or if the person wasn't believable in the first place, maybe having them here at all isn't such a good idea -- especially if they're being asses about it; therefore, if questioning causes them to leave, I say "Awesome!" I don't like the idea of coddling anybody.

On the other hand, I've seen people start flame wars over the smallest things -- like Belief A doesn't line up with Belief B a little bit, so a huge debate starts. It doesn't help that a lot of the people starting the questioning are being asses about it. I think that, to a point, a person should be left alone if they ask the aggressors to back off.

Perhaps we could eliminate the "don't touch" option in the field? "Ask me questions" and "Ask nicely" should be enough, I think.

~ Ashaiel

Could be useful to extents, at least to give people more idea how to phrase their questions to different individuals. It might give the 'interrogators', so to say, some inkling on the person they are posing the question to, so as to consciously bring any 'harshness' down or to go ahead and just say it. It may also be a good way to serve as a buffer for those people who are having problems at a certain time, like say maybe someone normally is fine with taking harder questions, but circumstances in their life have put them more on edge and leave that as a frustrating prospect for the time being.

The success of this could vary though, and I'm not sure how much people would pay attention to it. Should also be careful, some people might be sensitive, but we really cannot afford for everyone to always be 'protected', they'll have to face some harshness here and there to grow and really find what the truth is. Still, it might be an alright system, difficult to tell on how viable it truly is unless it was in action however.

Ashaiel Wrote:On the one hand, I believe that someone shouldn't be left alone if they have outlandish claims.

of course not. you can still report the person to the mods, and we will take care of it rather than starting a flame war.

I left because, quite frankly, there is no room for so called 'interrigators' on this forum. There's no room for kittens either. I went through the proper channels, made the staff aware of the problems I was facing, but little to nothing could be done. This isn't about admin control, its more about the lack of respect some people have towards other people for whatever reason. You can't make someone respect you but you can hope they respect themselves enough not to come off as an asshole. No one here can fix, explain, or substanciate another's claims; not with all the interigation in the world. Every topic breaks down into an argument and saying back off to someone that posed offense is unacknowledged. It gets met with anger and the haughty air of 'I have a right to ask whatever I want, however I want to ask it, and if the answer is not to my satisfaction, you're wrong.' No one on this forum can prove or disprove anything, yet the forcefullness of people's counterarguments leaves no room for civility. A community is meant to support one another not push out anyone who cannot explain their ideas well enough to saite the 'interrigators'. Look at that new girl that was burned within 2 days of signing up and was forced to leave. Are none of us willing to stand up and be responsible for the younger members who are still just looking and trying their best to find the answers themselves? Maybe we should reevaluate the reason why the 'interigators' attack without provication rather than distinguish who can handle being attacked and who cannot. Maybe the strength of those 'interigators' can be put to better use; instead of tearing people down, perhaps it would be better to lift people up. I'm quite sure the lot of us have enough people trying to tear down our beliefs in our day to day lives.

I'm all for questioning, I always have been. You learn nothig being set in your ways. But you also learn nothing picking at the holes in other people's faith. We all believe different things, that one of the greatest advantages of being in this community. But now people are hesitant in putting forth true beliefs because they are afraid someone will take offense and take advantage of them. Everything must be covered in disclaimers and humbily written to aviod counterattacks. That's unacceptable on any opinion based board. 'Interigators', with their faultless logic, should turn that razor sharp perception on themselves when faced with ideas they don't believe to be true. Younger members will benefit from hearing the 'interigators' point of view rather than having loaded questions that have no provable answers slung at them. Backing off is a virture, choosing the higher road, kindness and compassion. No one here has ever claimed to know everything: I think that's one of the main reasons we are here in a palce where experience matters little. Just because you have worked with tarot cards for 50 years doesn't mean that anyone here is going to take your experiece at face value. 'Interigators' need to get over the variety of points of view that are being presented on this board. Nobody's beliefs and answers on this board negates anyone elses. Let me repeat that: Nobody's beliefs, answers, or opinions here negate or confirm anyone else's beliefs. So, with that knowledge, our goal should be finding common ground rather than separating us further with innane questions. This isn't a sensitivity issue, I'm pretty sure most of us have built up some kind of thicker skin when it comes to our 'otherness'. This place, of all places, should be the last place we should have to rely on that thick skin to survive.

We're also well aware of what the inquisition did to matters of faith.

Another reason I left was because I thought I was part of the problem. But clearly I was not as this issue has only now come to a head. And now, after my own wounds have healed, I feel that it would be cowardly for me to walk away and deny the community of people I have grown to respect. New members come here to look for peers in a world that may not accept them. I am ashamed to think that they could be turned away so easily by a group of people willing to sacrifice the beliefs of others to substanciate theirs. Whether or not we all like each other is moot. It doesn't mean we shouldn't all support each other. But if members find themselves avoiding other members, there is a problem that cannot be fixed with sensativity labels.

Its pained me greatly to leave the OP and I have lurked every frikken day with the hope that something would break. Its because I care about you critters. I hope my words will be taken at face value and not seen as an attack on any specific group of people. I'm willing to admit that I may have overreacted at times out of a sense of personal insult, and I admit that without the need of anyone else's admissions, apologies or reasons. I'm confident that there are other people unwilling or unable to express their own offense and frustration for fear of retribution. And not from the staff, but from other members. We all have voices, but we should not have to shout over one another to be heard.

Voice from beyond the grave,
Taiaka

Taiaka, first of all, thanks for your detailed and heartfelt response.

I do not want to pick you apart or attack you in any way, but I did just want to address a few specific points you made.

Taiaka Wrote:I left because, quite frankly, there is no room for so called 'interrigators' on this forum. There's no room for kittens either.

I disagree. I think there is room for both - both exist here, and can potentially get along just fine so long as they understand how the other set works.

It might come as no surprise to you that most of the forums I enjoy frequenting are "interrogator" based - one hockey on in particular is notorious for the "kittens" running away very quickly. It is also notorious for the interrogators getting very angry that people can't answer their questions and back up their opinions. In situations when the interrogators want answers from everyone, they get unhappy. In situations where the kittens want agreement from everyone, they get unhappy.

But here's the thing - most of the people from both sides who have been around a long time know who reacts what way, and the interrogators are capable of remaining calm when their questions aren't answered . . . while the kittens are capable of ignoring questions they don't want to answer.

There is room for both kinds of people, as well as the ones in the middle, so long as people realise that not everyone likes to interact in the same way that they do. That goes for both sides.

Quote:I went through the proper channels, made the staff aware of the problems I was facing, but little to nothing could be done. This isn't about admin control, its more about the lack of respect some people have towards other people for whatever reason.

Without getting into details - lack of respect is indeed a staff issue, because one of the rules of this site is that members must be respectful towards one another. In the specific instance you raised though - and I would like to emphasise that I am glad you raised it, because otherwise the staff don't know there is a problem - it was discussed at some length and the conclusion we came to was that no rules had been broken.

It wasn't that nothing could be done - it was that on balance the feeling was that, at that time, no rules had been broken and so there was no need to do anything.

Quote:No one here can fix, explain, or substanciate another's claims; not with all the interigation in the world.

That is debateable - however I do believe that through questioning, inconsistencies in claims and beliefs can be found and as a result the believer can have the opportunity to re-evaluate how everything they believe fits together.

Quote:It gets met with anger and the haughty air of 'I have a right to ask whatever I want, however I want to ask it, and if the answer is not to my satisfaction, you're wrong.'

I genuinely believe that everyone on this forum has the right to say "I disagree and think you are wrong", so long as they can do it in a manner which is both polite and respectful. I also believe that every member has the right to say "Good for you, but I will ignore you from now on" if they don't want to deal with that kind of conflicting opinion.

It's the internet; anyone can back off at any time they want to. The second the stress of reading and responding to a post is greater than the enjoyment, that's the time to just not read and respond.

Quote:Look at that new girl that was burned within 2 days of signing up and was forced to leave.

Who was this? Also, no-one can be "forced to leave" unless they get banned. They can however decide that this forum is not the right place for them; they can also choose to ignore posts by certain users and simply not read what they write.

I do not believe that for this to be a successful and useful place everyone must get along with everyone at all times. In fact I think that kind of universal "acceptance" would be entirely counterproductive. It is not, in my opinion, a bad thing if people disagree with each other, or even dislike each other. It is the internet - it is simplicity itself to ignore those voices which it makes you uncomfortable to listen to.




I appreciate that this topic is more for members than staff to contribute to, so that we can gauge the general feeling; however I felt there were a few specific points that I wanted to address.

If anyone has a question about respectfully responding to something they don't agree with, read Archer's post. Responses like that breed discussion not dissension. Thank you!

i don't believe there should be a sensitivity to questions field as i think this might cause more separation of the form then bringing it together. people might see it as the person has something to hide and not that they just don't feel the need to dicuss the topic. so then you'll probably have little side deals going on saying so and so is a poser or a fluffy because they don't want to answer such and such questions. or sometimes people don't want to answer those questions out in an open forum. *shrugs* i don't know though, i don't have a problem letting people know that i will not be answering their question.