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I was having a conversation with some friends and one of them admited that he hates every picture hes ever seen of Lucifer. From what Ive heard about his fall and whatnot and my friend felt the same way, is that he was one of the most beautiful angels in heaven (dont kill me if Im off here). So what he wanted to know and was irratated about is why Lucifer is always depicted as an ugly creature. Im curious about the same and was wondering what your opinions were on it <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Propaganda?
They're drawings and paintings - not photographs.
I agree with Xanthus, I mean look at World War II pictures of Adolf Hitler, sure Hitler wasn't a warm and friendly looking guy, but the cartoon renditions are totally out of whack. Now that's Hitler, even the "I hate Hitler" fan club never had as many members or members in power or members with the kind of power as the membership of the "I hate Satan" fan club.

I do agree that yes, Morning Star was the most beautiful and glorious of the Host, and I do believe that most of that disappeared during the Fall, as the glory of the Creator no longer shined through him. His wings had changed, his skin color and hair had changed, he still has his posture, physique and face though.
i mostly agree with what's said......they stopped just short of giving him a moustache, monocle, shifty eyebrows, an ambiguous foreign accent, and a cape. popular depictions stem from those brought about in classic imagery such as dante's inferno...same goes with hell. it would have most likely been heresy to depict lucifer as anything other than a cliche bad guy in those times...so i imagine artists strayed away from it and the image stuck. besides, look at who's writing the history books. (no citations here, just supposition)
It's a common practise. The gods of a conquered culture become the demons of the conquerer.

The image of Lucifer stems from the traditions of the Horned Gods in the Middle-East and Mediterranean. The "ugly" goatbottomed demon image from the expansion of the Christian Roman Empire, when Pan/Bacchus was co-opted into Lucifer, Zeus into YHWH, and Apollo into YHShWH. From there the image just evolved with the culture, sometimes adding Batwings, or losing the legs, adding a phallus, etc.

It's actually pretty easy to follow the iconography back.
That's how it is for anyone really. Take images of George Bush for instance. You've got people drawing him in a Nazi uniform with a Hitler mustache <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

Does Bush look like the evil Hitler? No, he's just drawn that way by people who don't like him to show their viewpoint.

And in the same sense... does Lucifer look like a big red devil with horns surrounded by fire? No, he was just given that image by the people who didn't like him, to show THEIR viewpoint.
I'll add this too...

It is fascinating to follow the actual word back.
The fall of lucifer as referred to in the bible refers to the fall/death of a babylonian king.
The word has been used for Venus as well.
It's the name of a minor greek diety, the son of Zeus and Eos.
And the oldest reference to the actual name - "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."
Slightly off topic - Hitler had brains. bushel has brains driving him so theres quite a few differences - however, i tend to view whats being done in the US as quite similar to germany in the 30s. but thats another topic....
In Babylonian astronomy, there is a 'Helel Line' that marks the zenith of the Venus' passing which is very different from the Ishtar Line associated with the same planet. Helel is the Caannonite name of 'lucifer', and the morning star, and is seriously important to astronomical divination- its like the control line, seperated into 30 degree gradiants, each gradient a combination of Helel plus another god/goddess. Think Tarot, the Helel line could be represented by your personal signifier card, and each gradient (depending on what constellation is inside of said gradient) would be related back to your card. I guess this is a older preception of Lucifer, no graven images or blazing horns, but certainly important if only through moniker.

Tai
Taiaka Wrote:In Babylonian astronomy, there is a 'Helel Line' that marks the zenith of the Venus' passing which is very different from the Ishtar Line associated with the same planet. Helel is the Caannonite name of 'lucifer', and the morning star, and is seriously important to astronomical divination- its like the control line, seperated into 30 degree gradiants, each gradient a combination of Helel plus another god/goddess. Think Tarot, the Helel line could be represented by your personal signifier card, and each gradient (depending on what constellation is inside of said gradient) would be related back to your card. I guess this is a older preception of Lucifer, no graven images or blazing horns, but certainly important if only through moniker.

Tai

There are a lot of theories that Helel was mythological figure that co-opted into the Abrahamic faiths to be their "devil" figure, the myths of Helel and El do have a strong Luci/YHWH undertone.

Anyways, my question is, where can I get sources for Babylonian astronomy, as such would interest me greatly.
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