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The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Laiko Su Katara
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Post: #1
The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Was going to post this article hear and stumbled on this topic <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://otherkinphenomena.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=344">http://otherkinphenomena.org/phpBB3/vie ... f=11&t=344</a><!-- m --> .

Your pretty aware. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

However, here's another beat by the hammer, its been posted on every OK site I monitor.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:This is a thread I will post in every otherkin site iam member in.
So...copy and paste ninja! ;D

I wont tell any names or places, but I think each site will identify itself somewhere in the post.


Hi all, this really grind my gears.

There are many out there claiming to have a "scientific" view on otherkin.
On another forum ive seen a thread about Science versus Spirituality where many said that the both cant be mixed togheter.

So how can you then have a scientific view on otherkin?
You cant, its impossible since otherkin is spiritual and its all about spiritualism when it come to the subject.


Then all this snick-snack about fluffers I see everywhere, no matter what forum I go to there's (almost always) a non-fluff policy.

What is fluff?

*If you are laidback and talk new-age.
*If you bring people hope by telling legends and myths or help them "heal" be astral travel or spells.
*If you identify yourself with something you cant verify.


Once again, you can never, ever, ever prove yourself to be otherkin.
You cant prove your a dragon by breathing fire or prove yourself to be vampire by drinking blood.

In most cases people call someone fluff because they have never heard of that particular kintype or condition.
I will now present some example's of what I mean, I wont use any real usernames (not on purpose at least, I make up some new names here).

Example 1-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf because I identify myself with wolfs and one night at fullmoon it felt like I was going to change into a wolf.
UberModMan - O...k.
TwilightFanzor - What a fraud...

*WolfMan banned or warned for being fluff*



Example 2-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf.
UberModMan - Oh, nice to meet you.
TwilightFanzor - Hi and welcome. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

...so...the few words and the less description you put out the more welcome you are?

Here's a classic.



Example 1.

LolipopMan - Hi all, I have theory that theres a vortex in space where all souls may have been created.
HaxxorDragon - I have never seen this in my astral travels.
L0L - I dont believe in it.
AngelSama - We all know all souls were created by the creation god.
Kalamari - *Quote LolipopMan* I have given it some thought and that may be possible.
HaxxorDragon - *Quote Kalamari* Did I not tell you that I havent seen it on my astral travels? I dont think its possible...




Astral travel...
You can ask 10 different peps who claim to be able to astral travel and get 10 different descriptions.
People can just throw out alot of things claiming to be sights from astral traveling and then influence the masses who cannot astral travel and see for themself.

With other words...whole communities may be stupified from various non-verified claims.


Then I see all these attacks between kintypes.
I have seen dragons hating starseeds, angels hating vampires and the list going on and on and on...

My point is...the otherkin community is no different from the human community.

There are good mods and bad mods the same way as there are good cops and bad cops, good admins and bad admins the same way as there are good politicans and bad politicans and finally there are good members and bad members the same way as there are nice people and bad people.

I choose to be the same kind of person both online and real life; the rebell who fight for others and for change.

The otherkin community is no different from the human community, we claim ourself to be free from racism, nazism, sexism and homophobia but we have only exchanged one kind of intolerance to another.

People in real life hunt terrorists and many get islamophobic the same way as otherkin communities hunt fluffers and many confused possible otherkin have paid the price.

If you, the otherkin, are older than most human souls, blessed with wisdom from past lifes and claim yourself to be different, how can you then be so human in your behavior?

I monitor several otherkin sites, I have seen them degenerate as the community become more and more close-minded.
With this article I hope to change the course a bit and make people to see the truth on these sites and make the other communities avoid these sites mistakes.

So that YOU become aware.
So that YOU have a change to change from this awareness.
If you have no will to even consider what you have read here and change then I wont care much.
All I ask for is tolerance, I show tolerence, I give people a chance...
I want others to do it too.

Go ahead and walk your way.

I believe iam very on edge with this post and it may be classed as grilling, flame or flamebaiting.
But then I have just proven my point...

Thank you for reading this and I hope you understand the content and the message I want to bring you.

Feel free to discuss the content, that way we could understand each other better.

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2009-06-30 13:21
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Post: #2
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
C&P'd from OKA:

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:So how can you then have a scientific view on otherkin?
You cant, its impossible since otherkin is spiritual and its all about spiritualism when it come to the subject.

A scientific view on otherkin means applying the scientific method to your experiences and beliefs. I.E. think up a hypothesis and look for 'evidence' to support it in the form of phantom limbs, past life experiences, mental shifts, etc. Apply Occam's Razor to see what can easily be explained by simply being human.

Not everyone believes in a spiritual explanation for otherkin. There are many who believe that identifying as otherkin (and I see this mainly in the therian community) is a psychological thing.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Then all this snick-snack about fluffers I see everywhere, no matter what forum I go to there's (almost always) a non-fluff policy.

What is fluff?

*If you are laidback and talk new-age.
*If you bring people hope by telling legends and myths or help them "heal" be astral travel or spells.
*If you identify yourself with something you cant verify.

Pretty sure there's a thread around here on the topic of what people consider fluff, so I recommend finding it to see just what people are thinking of when they apply the fluff label. Everything you've listed can be considered fluff *depending on how it's presented*. It isn't fluff in and of itself.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Once again, you can never, ever, ever prove yourself to be otherkin.
You cant prove your a dragon by breathing fire or prove yourself to be vampire by drinking blood.

No, you can't 100% prove that you're otherkin, which is why it's even more important to analyze your beliefs, because you *can* come up with some pretty convincing evidence for yourself if no one else.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:In most cases people call someone fluff because they have never heard of that particular kintype or condition.

I can't say I've heard this happen, from a kintype standpoint. Someone claiming to have some kind of physical condition can obviously be proved one way or the other. In my experience, people who claim to be something no one's heard of are questioned (just like everyone else) and many are given even *more* credence because of the unique nature of their believed kintype. Again, it's entirely dependent upon the person, their claims, and their reactions.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Example 1-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf because I identify myself with wolfs and one night at fullmoon it felt like I was going to change into a wolf.
UberModMan - O...k.
TwilightFanzor - What a fraud...

*WolfMan banned or warned for being fluff*

Where did this happen? Personally, I've seen people like this questioned and personal opinions on p-shifting (and reminders to take a peek at the rules if claims of p-shifting violate them), but never people just writing them off and staff banning them.

Okay, I've seen someone banned on one site (which I won't name to avoid dramaz) for mispelling their kintype...but that I only saw happen once...and guess what? I'm not on that forum anymore.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Example 2-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf.
UberModMan - Oh, nice to meet you.
TwilightFanzor - Hi and welcome. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

...so...the few words and the less description you put out the more welcome you are?

Sometimes, the better your description the less people will question solely because what you mean is clearer. For example, someone could come in and say something like 'I'm a demon and I'm tired of people thinking I'm evil...because I'm not even though I'm a lord of hell'. Now that would get a lot more questions from me than the same person saying "I think I'm some kind of chaotic energetic being (demon?) and further think I might be some kind of lord of hell".

In an already odd community, it helps to be clear what you mean...especially when things can be taken in many ways.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Example 1.

LolipopMan - Hi all, I have theory that theres a vortex in space where all souls may have been created.
HaxxorDragon - I have never seen this in my astral travels.
L0L - I dont believe in it.
AngelSama - We all know all souls were created by the creation god.
Kalamari - *Quote LolipopMan* I have given it some thought and that may be possible.
HaxxorDragon - *Quote Kalamari* Did I not tell you that I havent seen it on my astral travels? I dont think its possible...
This sounds like something that would happen on OKF.net...I'd say (in your example) HaxxorDragon is presenting an opinion as an opinion...not as fact. L0l and angelsama's responses are against the rules on many communities I'm on, and the others there's nothing wrong with.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:With other words...whole communities may be stupified from various non-verified claims.

Which is why people traditionally are questioned. It helps people understand where they're coming from and helps the poster understand why they believe what they do.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Then I see all these attacks between kintypes.
I have seen dragons hating starseeds, angels hating vampires and the list going on and on and on...

Can't say I've seen people (non-trolls anyhow) hating someone just because of their kintype *shrug*. People dislike people because of how they present themselves, not because of what they claim to be on the inside...99.9% of the time anyhow. Remember, we're still human. Humans have a tendency to not love everyone.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:My point is...the otherkin community is no different from the human community.

Exactly. Probably because we ARE HUMAN.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:I choose to be the same kind of person both online and real life; the rebell who fight for others and for change.

I also choose to be the same on and offline. A person who doesn't blindly believe what people claim. Someone who speaks exactly what they think and questions others so that I can understand what they believe and why...and so can they. I help others, and myself, grow...and fight for those who are deserving. Someone who strives to balance science and spirituality because there is plenty of room for both.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:The otherkin community is no different from the human community, we claim ourself to be free from racism, nazism, sexism and homophobia but we have only exchanged one kind of intolerance to another.

I've never seen anywhere claim that the otherkin community is free from whatever -isms. You said it yourself...we're all human. Of course we're not all going to like each other or agree on anything. If we did, I think it'd be a pretty boring place to be. I mean, how much help would it be if someone joined a forum claiming to be whatever and everyone just said "awesome! welcome!" No one would grow and we'd be the laughing stock of every community aware of our existance. Personally, I'd rather be respected as different (even if people think I'm nuts) than ridden off.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:People in real life hunt terrorists and many get islamophobic the same way as otherkin communities hunt fluffers and many confused possible otherkin have paid the price.

I haven't seen a community "hunt fluff". They question it...may ban some people who claim they're a p-shifting dragon queen from planet X because having people like that would be detrimental to any confused person and to the community as a whole. No one has been killed for being fluff. I don't think fighting terrorism, or Islamic Jihads, are like pointing out and dealing with fluff.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:If you, the otherkin, are older than most human souls, blessed with wisdom from past lifes and claim yourself to be different, how can you then be so human in your behavior?

Probably because WE ARE HUMAN. Humans are beings driven by chemical reactions, no amount of identifying as whatever in mentality or spirituality will change that. As much as we might be swayed by our "soul," we will still be driven by chemicals...by our biology...by being *human*. How can you keep pointing out that we're human one minute, yet ignore what that means?

Many of our thinking isn't always entirely human...but that doesn't change the fact (the one thing every otherkin can 100% prove) that we're still human.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:I monitor several otherkin sites, I have seen them degenerate as the community become more and more close-minded.
With this article I hope to change the course a bit and make people to see the truth on these sites and make the other communities avoid these sites mistakes.

I've seen communities popping up that blindly accept everyone's claims. These communities are the type of thing that make people roll their eyes at all of us. Personally, I'd rather we be respected and given some credence than simply waved off for being loons.

I agree that there are some communities out there that are far too focused on disproving everyone, than understanding everyone. But you have to (at least try to) understand that questioning people, and banning trolls and uber fluff with completely ridiculous claims, are to keep the community safe for the newly awakened and long awakened alike.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:All I ask for is tolerance, I show tolerence, I give people a chance...
I want others to do it too.

There is a difference between tolerance and blindly accepting everything anyone claims. Completely intolerance is just as damaging as complete blind acceptance.

Mind you, I'm posting this entirely calmly. I post exactly what I mean, nothing more. Just felt the need to point that out.

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2009-06-30 15:00
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Post: #3
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Laiko Su Katara Wrote:This is a thread I will post in every otherkin site iam member in.
So...copy and paste ninja! ;D
I'll copy-pasta my reply to wherever I see this post then.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:There are many out there claiming to have a "scientific" view on otherkin.
On another forum ive seen a thread about Science versus Spirituality where many said that the both cant be mixed togheter.
For every person that states that science and spirituality can not be mixxed, there is another person stating that the two are absultely able to be mixxed.
I for one am a person that the two are by far not opposing points and that treating them as two opposites is like treating "food" and "drink" as two opposites.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:So how can you then have a scientific view on otherkin?
You cant, its impossible since otherkin is spiritual and its all about spiritualism when it come to the subject.
It's absolutely possible to have a scientific view on otherkin. There are more than spiritual beliefs involved. To state that you "can not" have a scientific view is also a little rude. Who are you to tell the world what they can and can not think?

I think that a part of what's bothering you here is that you're only looking at science as a certain group of things that science does.
As measuring, weighing, experementing and proving physical properties of physical things. Yes that science, but that's only one fraction of what science is.
The scientific approach is to present a hypothesis (I think I'm otherkin), gathering all available information even that which speaks against the hypothesis being true (looking into psychology, meditation, trying to work out what you "really" believe, examining past life memories trying to discern if they're true by comparing them with what is known on the place/time/etc where they originate, this means trying to debunk them as much as you try to prove them, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,), examining all that information and trying to discern whether your hypothesis is more supported or debunked and coming to a conclusion of whether or not you're going to take that hypothesis and treat it as a "theory" and applying it to yourself.
In other words.
To think it through, examine it, consider alternative explanations, is all scientific in nature and does not reduce the spiritual value.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Then all this snick-snack about fluffers I see everywhere, no matter what forum I go to there's (almost always) a non-fluff policy.
.. well yes.
Because fluff is demeaning to the rest of the community.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:What is fluff?

*If you are laidback and talk new-age.
*If you bring people hope by telling legends and myths or help them "heal" be astral travel or spells.
*If you identify yourself with something you cant verify.
Actually, none of that is "fluff". I completely disagree with your presented definition.
When I use the word fluff I mean the following:
Roleplaying. Presenting fiction as fact. Presenting hypothesis as fact. Refusing to consider alternative explanations. Refusing to consider that people who's opinions differ from yours may have opinions that are as valid as your. Systematically refusing to accept proven reality.
But more than all of that, what fluff is, is refusing to thing, refusing to question, and lacking any and all rational, reasonable explanations for anything one has to say.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Once again, you can never, ever, ever prove yourself to be otherkin.
You cant prove your a dragon by breathing fire or prove yourself to be vampire by drinking blood.
You can never prove you're otherkin, but you can think things through. You can accept that because you can't prove it you can't know, ever, for 100% sure, that it's not just a psychological mechanism you've constructed for yourself... i.e. It'll always be a matter of belief, not fact.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:In most cases people call someone fluff because they have never heard of that particular kintype or condition.
I will now present some example's of what I mean, I wont use any real usernames (not on purpose at least, I make up some new names here).
In most cases, that I've seen, it's not because people haven't heard of that particular kintype. I myself am asked repeatedly what my kintype is and I explain it to the best of my ability at every turn and I've never been called fluffy that I am aware of.
I don't call people fluffy based on what their kintype is but how they present themselves as persons.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Example 1-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf because I identify myself with wolfs and one night at fullmoon it felt like I was going to change into a wolf.
UberModMan - O...k.
TwilightFanzor - What a fraud...

*WolfMan banned or warned for being fluff*


Example 2-2.

WolfMan - Hi all, you can call me WolfMan and iam a werewolf.
UberModMan - Oh, nice to meet you.
TwilightFanzor - Hi and welcome. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

...so...the few words and the less description you put out the more welcome you are?

Here's a classic.



Example 1.

LolipopMan - Hi all, I have theory that theres a vortex in space where all souls may have been created.
HaxxorDragon - I have never seen this in my astral travels.
L0L - I dont believe in it.
AngelSama - We all know all souls were created by the creation god.
Kalamari - *Quote LolipopMan* I have given it some thought and that may be possible.
HaxxorDragon - *Quote Kalamari* Did I not tell you that I havent seen it on my astral travels? I dont think its possible...
It's not what you say but how you say it.

I'm entitled to my own beliefs and disbeliefs, as you are entitled to your beliefs and disbeliefs. If you mean to imply that one isn't allowed to state one's disbelief, only belief, and that one should refrain from stating known, documented facts, when they do not align with someone's beliefs, then how exactly do you propose that people learn and grow?
How are people supposed to learn and grow and even become certain and solid in their beliefs if we're supposed to treat them as delicate flowers that can not be exposed even to the words "I don't agree", let alone the question "why"?

When people disagree with you it's not because they're horrible people who don't like you and are picking on you, it's because their opinions and experiences differ from yours in one way or another, frequently for a good reason, and you're discounting their beliefs, their opinions, their experiences, their reasons and more when you reduce these things to personal attacks.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Astral travel...
You can ask 10 different peps who claim to be able to astral travel and get 10 different descriptions.
People can just throw out alot of things claiming to be sights from astral traveling and then influence the masses who cannot astral travel and see for themself.
And yet others who question these people give those who can not see for themselves a chance to consider the possibility that the person who is making these claims isn't exactly the most knowledgeable person in the world.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:With other words...whole communities may be stupified from various non-verified claims.
Which is why skepticism is good.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Then I see all these attacks between kintypes.
I have seen dragons hating starseeds, angels hating vampires and the list going on and on and on...
I, personally, have had bad experiences with certain groups of otherkin. I, personally, have good reason to remain skeptical of these people. Sometimes, when people speak out against a group, there are experiences and good reasons for doing so.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:My point is...the otherkin community is no different from the human community.
That is because we're all human.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:There are good mods and bad mods the same way as there are good cops and bad cops, good admins and bad admins the same way as there are good politicans and bad politicans and finally there are good members and bad members the same way as there are nice people and bad people.
That is because we're all human.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:I choose to be the same kind of person both online and real life; the rebell who fight for others and for change.
I'm the same person on and off the computer myself as well. I'm a nice guy. I'm just a nice guy with standards.
And I do "fight for change". I'm politically aware and active. I am a member of support groups for people who are truly oppressed in this world, in this reality.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:The otherkin community is no different from the human community, we claim ourself to be free from racism, nazism, sexism and homophobia but we have only exchanged one kind of intolerance to another.
We do not make any such claim. At least I've never seen any otherkin community make that claim. I've seen the rules include a "we will not tolerate" sort of a clause but no community with half a brain would claim to be perfectly free of these things.
We're all human!
We're flawed!

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:People in real life hunt terrorists and many get islamophobic the same way as otherkin communities hunt fluffers and many confused possible otherkin have paid the price.
No! This right here, is a plain out lie. And more than that, it's offensive!
In otherkin communities, those that are perceived as fluffy are questioned, challenged, and occasionally joked about. That is absolutely NOTHING compared to the brutality inflicted on people who are truly oppressed off in the real world.
It is an insult against every Transgendered/Transsexual person who has been murdered by bigots to equate the "suffering" of otherkin to theirs.
It is an insult to every innocent person who looks to be of Arabic descent and has been openly abused physically, verbally and more, in retribution for 9/11, to equate their suffering to that of "otherkin" who're called out on fluff.
It is an insult to every gay child that's been beaten by their own religious parents simply for being gay to compare "being banned for fluff" with that.
.. And so on and so forth..

Being called out on fluff, being banned for fluff, being questioned and challenged, being disbelieved and even being scoffed is Nothing in comparison to real hunting, oppression, and systematic bigotry and to imply it is more than an insult to every one who is truly oppressed.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:If you, the otherkin, are older than most human souls, blessed with wisdom from past lifes and claim yourself to be different, how can you then be so human in your behavior?
Because we are all human in this life.
We are otherkin, yes. But that doesn't have to mean that "human souls" are younger, less wise, or in any way lesser at all than ours.
To suggest that we are "older, wiser, greater," is big headed.
We aren't better than other people, just a little different.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:I monitor several otherkin sites, I have seen them degenerate as the community become more and more close-minded.
With this article I hope to change the course a bit and make people to see the truth on these sites and make the other communities avoid these sites mistakes.
Asking questions =/= Closed minded.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:All I ask for is tolerance, I show tolerence, I give people a chance...
I want others to do it too.
Tolerance is one thing, blind acceptance of everything anyone has to say, is something completely different.
You yourself pointed out the problem with blind acceptance in your "person talking about astral things" example.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:I believe iam very on edge with this post and it may be classed as grilling, flame or flamebaiting.
But then I have just proven my point...
No flaiming here. Just my honest reply.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Thank you for reading this and I hope you understand the content and the message I want to bring you.
No thanks necessary. I'm all for people expressing their thoughts on subjects.

Laiko Su Katara Wrote:Feel free to discuss the content, that way we could understand each other better.
Hope in reading what I have to say that you'll better understand where I'm coming from.

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2009-06-30 16:01
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Post: #4
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Laiko Su Katara Wrote:So how can you then have a scientific view on otherkin?
You cant, its impossible since otherkin is spiritual and its all about spiritualism when it come to the subject.

I pretty much echo the nice long posts the first two wrote. However...

Science can also be applied to certain claims. For example, it is outright impossible on this planet using these physics and this evolutionary line.... for a 300 tonne western dragon with a 100 foot wingspan to have flown without any outside source of help here on earth. Science in general, and biology and physics in particular say "NO." (yes, this is a claim I actually encountered)

Other claims can include: Levitating objects. Physical shapeshifting. Having DNA that significantly differs from humans. Any claim that has the potential to be looked at in a scientific manner can and should be.
2009-06-30 16:40
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Post: #5
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
I have seen forums that have run on both sides of the tracks, and since a few individuals have answered at length, I shall, like Shiari, try to keep mine brief and to the point...

(if you want the whole length, read on, if you want my summary and point, skip to the bottom)

A) Anyone who honestly believes themselves to be Otherkin is 100% definitely Otherkin as far as I am concerned. This is predicated on the definition of Otherkin being one who "believes" themselves to be (insert lengthy description of something inhuman here).

B) To attempt to view metaphysical through the scope of science is difficult, to attempt to view metaphysical through scientific method is plausible, desirable and easy.

C) on the issue of what is considered fluff, forums waver from side to side, it often times depends on the presentation of the person and their ideas, which comes down to language. Some forums however have a problem with double standards. Let's take a stereotypically poorly run community, they might see a skeptical person as an incredible taboo on their boards and accuse them of being closed minded or "not a true Otherkin" (that is my favorite) or perhaps that they "just don't know. They then will apply harsher and even more unfounded rejection of ideas not their own against a plausible description based on personal bias, while allowing their own "inner circle" to go on happy and free with their internet experience under the claim that that particular forum protects them from the harsh misunderstandings of the un-enlightened communities out there.

D) I can't agree with Shiari anymore than I already do when it comes to physics and scientific fact in this universe. I once encountered an individual who claimed to have come into existence about 50 years ago and had several centuries of lifetimes, they wouldn't accept criticism in the fact that they couldn't have fit their history into 50 years minus their current physical age. I have seen claims of physical shifting like in hollywood movies and been banned for even bringing up the concept of the sensitivity of energy:matter conversion let alone in a concentrated and coherent fashion while keeping an organism alive. Science is the entirety of what we can currently understand, as we learn more, science will encompass more. What is the realm of "magic" today will be the fact of science tomorrow. Therefore applying science to metaphysical concepts can in certain situations be absolutely plausible.

E) the arguments of astral experience or shared past life memory is one that I avoid. There are many who believe themselves Angels in the community who I differ greatly with in their view of Heaven and the existence and purpose of Angels. Some have banned me and said I'm not an Angel because of it, or claimed I don't possess the right traits according to their template belief, some have given official warnings or threats of being banned for introducing my own perspective as a result of it disagreeing with theirs.

Anyway... you can skip most of what I just wrote if you're looking for the short and simple answer. Ego...

The Otherkin community, comprised of people who are Human are infected with an ego, some individuals and communities can put aside their ego or be wise enough to challenge their ego in order to really be objective, and the unfortunate many cannot. We have, by instinct, a want to be correct or be successful in what we do. To be completely honest, myself and this forum is partially a result of my own ego, I was taught ideals in the sense of an otherkin community for learning and wanted to create a place to be the epitome of that ideal, a place of learning and of debate and discussion that runs smoothly. I hope to do so by being objective and considerate while remaining skeptical and inquisitive. No matter the course however, all that still comes down to my ego at a very base level for the reason I do things the way I do.

The maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters.
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2009-07-03 0:51
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Post: #6
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
I just wanted to make a comment about the scientific method to make sure everyone is on the same track. The scientific method really involves asking a question, coming up with a hypothesis, designing and carrying out an experiment, analyzing the data, and repeating to see if the results are consistent. It's not really a simple process of poking around for evidence that falls in line with your hypothesis, or reading up on the subject.
2009-07-03 5:11
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Post: #7
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
My take on this is that most otherkin have egos the size of a red giant. I believe this is because they find out that they're not exactly human and that it gives them a sense of importance in an otherwise dull human life. Of course when someone comes along claiming to be the same kintype and their description of traits and looks differs their egos can't handle it. To them the person is calling them a lier or not kin so they react with intolerance and hate. They never consider that they may be wrong or might have misunderstood something with their discovery. They don't consider the possibility that the one disagreeing with them may have different experiences or a different personality. With differences in how the same kintype look they don't consider that everyone looks different. It would be boring if everyone of a particular kintype looked the same. Though to them if someone says that their kin form looks different than their own kin form then they can't possibly be the same kintype.

I think I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop now.


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2009-07-03 6:13
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Post: #8
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Yes, I'm an intolerant prick. And I'll tell you why.

Quote:Person A: Hello, I'm Bob.
Person B: Hi bob!
Person A: And I believe I'm a wolf.
Person B: Oh, gee! What makes you think that? Do you have fur and run on four legs, Bob, who I do not know in person?
Person A: Why yes, yes I do. I am in fact a talking wolf.
Person B: Well, I need to figure out a way to see this for myself. Can I get a picture? By mail?
Person A: Sure!

-3 weeks later-

Person B: Bob, this is clearly not a wolf. You are in fact a human being, who, while fuzzy, does not have fur and does not run on all fours.
Person A: But I do run on all fours.
Person B: I think you need to talk to a psychologist.

Meet Bob. Bob is your not-so-average guy. He thinks he's a wolf. Literally. He also just got back from a 5-year stay at the mental institute, but his friends mentioned that his medication is harmful to him and may screw up his perceptions of reality, so he refuses to take it.

Quote:Person A: Hi, I'm Sam.
Person B: Hi Sam!
Person A: I believe I'm a wolf.
Person B: Oh really, Sam? Do you have fur and run on all fours?
Person A: Haha, no! Silly me, what I meant is that I believe that I am spiritually a wolf.
Person B: Oh, interesting! What makes you think that?
Person A: Well, I have memories of being a wolf, and running through woods, and occasionally I feel as if I physically am a wolf, even if it's a phantom sensation.
Person B: Have you checked out a medical professional?
Person A: Sure have! I've even gone to a psychologist. Clean bill of health. I've been marking off various reasons my belief system couldn't work, and so far I'm at a middle ground. I could always have an overactive imagination, but this feels real, and right, to me.
Person B: Ok, Sam. I guess if you're going to be rational about such an... interesting... belief, there's only so much I can pick on you for. To each their own.

Meet Sam. Sam has some far-out beliefs, but has gone out of his way to seek alternate theories for them, rather than somehow believing that his beliefs are an exception to the laws of physics and the natural world. So far his beliefs are remaining in a middle ground, and he understands that. His beliefs may be someday proven wrong. Maybe, however, they may be proven right. Who knows?


"Fluffers," despite whether they're a troll, noob, poser, or otherwise, just go, "Hey, I feel back pain. I also have a real strong want to be special and accepted by a strange community. With all these movies and books coming out in the urban fantasy genre... hey, I could have wings!! Maybe I'm a dragon!!"

Being something other than human is cool right now. It is, seriously. I've heard some friends of mine, honestly, try to tell me they're vampires. Or wolves. Never any other therian, always wolves. So I just maintain a neutral head about it. Every one of them, with ONE exception, has later "changed their mind," acting like they never said a thing about it. It's a frickin trend now. <!-- s:sad_demon: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad_demon.gif" alt=":sad_demon:" title="sad demon" /><!-- s:sad_demon: -->

The thought of being something that's depicted in movies as more powerful, more attractive... hey, I had a Jack Sparrow phase. I wanted to be a swash-buckling pirate soooo bad, and all the ladies would want me and I could be USEFUL while DRUNK... holy crap! And then I did my research and realized pirates smell funny and have horrible dental hygiene... and no wonder Miss Swann kept turning Jack down. Makes sense now.

I never wanted to be a part of a community of Otherkin. I only went looking for one for answers. Now I'm here every once and a while for arguing and boredom's sake. Good debates here. ^_^

I've stumbled across a lot of "spiritually aware" people in the past year. I mean, I've actually had the resources to actively go out and look for metaphysical groups, etc. I've even been on a podcast with a bunch of Wiccans debunking my kin-ness. Pretty sweet. I like when people call me bull, because it keeps my ego down, and I know my ego can take down Chuck Norris.

Fluffers just assume that two situations are somehow related, when they're not. Back pain means back pain. You need to go to a doctor, not assume you have imaginary wings and try to fly.

When I first stumbled across an Otherkin site, on the internet about 3 or 4 years before I awakened, I thought they were full of crap. Dismissed it and moved on. Only later when I found a completely different article that reminded me of myself did I realize that somehow I was clumped into the same category as the full-of-crap guys and learned to deal with it.

When I first got here, I was trying soooo hard to accept things as I saw them. Then I had a spiritual awakening of a different sort and realized that... hey, I was wandering down that road of blind bliss and ignorance. I've been a skeptic since I could walk. My hormones and crazy changes and finding love and having sex and all that wonderful-teenage jazz stuff was making me emotional, sympathetic, more likely to believe things and I became an idealist.

Then I smacked myself in the face.

Of course you can't prove Otherkin. It's based on the business of belief, not actual knowing. You can claim you know it to be true, but the human mind has a great capacity to delude itself. It's why pregnant women say that having a baby is wonderful: many women actually block out the worst parts of labor subconsciously because the trauma is so great.

So what do you do? Make a claim. Do some research and create an experiment. Test it and come up with consistent results.

For instance, me. I claimed to myself that I fed off "energy". I not only experimented with it myself, but I pulled a blind experiment: I had my sister, as well as other people I know, hold stuff out for me, while I was blindfolded and had ear-plugs in. If I could feed off the same things with consistent results, my experiment would be right. I never actually got to touch any of it, merely hold myself close to it.

So, the electrical cord hooked up to the wall outlet? I could always feed off it.
The leaf? No.
The leaf attached to the potted plant? Yes.
A cat? Yes.
A cell phone? Yes.
A rock? No.
Another person? Yes.
A flashlight? Yes.
A statue? No.
A statue with electrical fixtures in it? Yes.

And a couple other things. I had 10 different people, mixing up the order of the items, in my friend's room which had the power turned off and felt vibe-free before the experiment, do this for me and it came out consistent. Does this mean I feed off energy?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! It merely means that the process I deem as "feeding off of energy" is consistent. It may not actually be that, my research is still incomplete.

Scientific method can be applied to un-scientific things to make sure that these things do not directly attempt to make an exception to science, but merely run right outside of the boundaries of science we have so far.

I don't like people telling me they're somehow special when they're not because it's a frickin crutch. If you want to be special, go save some homeless people or skydive or set a world record. Otherwise, you may think you're special, and that's great. But you're not special to me. You're just another human with a wacky belief, like the rest of us here. XD

Simim: Rainbow poop at your disservice.
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2009-07-06 15:43
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Post: #9
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
Crow Wrote:I just wanted to make a comment about the scientific method to make sure everyone is on the same track. The scientific method really involves asking a question, coming up with a hypothesis, designing and carrying out an experiment, analyzing the data, and repeating to see if the results are consistent. It's not really a simple process of poking around for evidence that falls in line with your hypothesis, or reading up on the subject.

This is a hugely valid point.

I generally distrust otherkin who claim to be "scientific" (as opposed to simply "rational" or "logical" or "reasonable") . . . because when they say scientific, they don't even come remotely close.

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

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2009-07-07 22:08
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Post: #10
Re: The intolerance among Otherkin communities
I agree. Too many people get their ideas of science from a mix of basic high-school knowledge mixed with some cool sci-fi movies and/or other people who have likely gotten their 'facts" from the two previously stated sources (and have a convenient habit of forgetting certain things like rules of DNA, or that chemical reacions often involve massive changes in temperature).

Also, despite the ectoplasm meters you see on TV, there is no definitive, or even vaguely stable evidence of a soul. People who get really defensive about that right away are generally trying to convince themselves of something.

Most of the time people can tell if someone is throwing around the old bull, and, although I see no need to be rude, sometimes they need to be told that we aren't idiots. It's fine to have your beliefs, but it isn't productive for anyone (including yourself) to have such solid beliefs that no info could make you question (note: question, not necessarily change) them.
2009-07-19 18:42
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