Hide background
READ THIS!

Welcome to the Otherkinphenomena forum.

You really have to follow these instructions! Instructions will update as you progress.

If you wish to post on, or access most of the content of our forum and our community, please click here to register first, then follow the instructions below. If you have already registered, please log in, in the above "Hello There, Guest!" box.

Thanks for understanding and see you around.



Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Shadow Gender?
Selana
Member is Offline
Feral Classicist
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 75
Points: 445.00
Contribution: tick 

Post: #1
Shadow Gender?
Long story how I started thinking about this, but...

...Do shadows always have a sex? Is it fixed?

My impression is that remoras don't really have a gender, they just sort of hang around, almost like a simpler form of shadow life. OTOH older/bigger shadows have always come across to me as gendered. But why? It just dawned on me that this is a strange thing, because they can change meatsacks throughout their endless lives so sex could also be fluid. Or is their sex woven into their energy somehow?
2009-03-26 11:53
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Rain
Member is Offline
Eager beaver
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 289
Points: 1495.00
Contribution: tick tick 

Post: #2
Re: Shadow Gender?
I would say that you are applying your concept of genders on them based on their energy patterns as opposed to an actual gender they contain. You even mention that remoras, which would have little to base gender off of, do not seem to have one.

As for myself, remoras have almost always seemed to be male, but the ones I have to go off of are the ones that I've come into contact with -- the ones who are influenced by my own rather male energy field. It's not a full-blown gender, but a simple "spark", if you will.

I would apply the same concept to older / bigger ones, as well. I don't see them as having a gender on their own.

~~~
2009-03-26 14:04
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Rein
Member is Offline
Nuisance
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 596
Points: 3155.00
Contribution: tick 

Post: #3
Re: Shadow Gender?
Marrik Wrote:I would say that you are applying your concept of genders on them based on their energy patterns as opposed to an actual gender they contain.
This.

IMO gender is primarily a physical thing. Any attributes we assign to either gender aside from the naughty-bits are just based off of the normal (but not uniform) patterns we see in males and females of our species. Take away the physical aspect and there really aren't 'genders' to be had, only loosely applied ideas of gender based on the present ideologies of our human society.

I think the simpler, seemingly 'genderless' ones you mentioned appear as such to you because they aren't as well-developed or self-aware as the older ones. To put it simply, your brain can't apply it's ideas of gender to a being if there isn't enough personal data about the subject's personality and temperament to be had.
2009-03-26 14:38
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Archer
Member is Offline
Suing You
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 2,813
Points: 14165.00
Contribution: tick tick tick tick 

Post: #4
Re: Shadow Gender?
Selana Wrote:Long story how I started thinking about this, but...

...Do shadows always have a sex? Is it fixed?

I don't recall meeting any shadows who reproduced sexually.

While I believe it certainly is possible for two (or more) shadows to combine together and create a third shadow out of their energy, there was no requirement that I am aware of for the "parent" shadows to be of different "classes" (sexes). As sex differences are the product of the way a great many physical entities (including plants) reproduce, and shadows didn't reproduce that way . . . no, no sexes.

Quote:My impression is that remoras don't really have a gender, they just sort of hang around, almost like a simpler form of shadow life. OTOH older/bigger shadows have always come across to me as gendered. But why? It just dawned on me that this is a strange thing, because they can change meatsacks throughout their endless lives so sex could also be fluid. Or is their sex woven into their energy somehow?

The majority of the "bigger" shadows I've met fall into one of three classes:

1) They have lived at least one life as a physical entity (like me!). That immediately causes gendering of an extent which may remain with them in future lives or in the rest of their shadow-life - a new perspective on things, as it were. Once they try on a physical sex (and try out gender roles) it could be that it's generally easier to keep wearing a suit of the same shape, if they continue to reincarnate.

2) They've spent enough time communicating with humans/elves/whoever that they've decided it is generally easier on humans to communicate with something "solid" rather than an abstract entity. So they wear a sex-shape (or gender-traits), a bit like speaking a foreign language with an accent.

3) Inherent sex bias from the observer. I'm thinking of a lot of the "hat man shadow" sightings, people calling Art Bell and so forth. None of those sightings seem remotely male to me, but they are almost always described as "he", sometimes "it", and practically never "she". Does that mean there's anything sexed or gendered about them? Nope, I think in general it's just a sign of the normalisation of male that occurs in so many (most? all?) modern Earth cultures. "Don't know what it is, let's call it a he!"

With the bigger shadow I'm most acquainted with, I'm pretty sure his maleness is largely a product of #1. His first outing in the physical was as a male, and he got very used to that particular shape. It had an effect on him so profound that I would say he understands himself as much in terms of that life, as in terms of his natural form. Which, lol, arguably makes him human-kin. I must remind him of that next time we speak <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

Quote:"I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood."

[Image: neverforgetm.png]
2009-03-26 14:52
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Archer
Member is Offline
Suing You
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 2,813
Points: 14165.00
Contribution: tick tick tick tick 

Post: #5
Re: Shadow Gender?
Kayako Wrote:IMO gender is primarily a physical thing.

Gender results from physical things (without sex differences such as hormones, brain structure, and reproduction there would be nothing to separate the human sexes anyway) but gender is itse'f a cultural thing. Gender roles and conceptions in different cultures are not identical, and they can change dramatically over time - the same is not true for physical attributes.

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

Quote:"I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood."

[Image: neverforgetm.png]
2009-03-26 14:54
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Selana
Member is Offline
Feral Classicist
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 75
Points: 445.00
Contribution: tick 

Post: #6
Re: Shadow Gender?
Kayako Wrote:Take away the physical aspect and there really aren't 'genders' to be had, only loosely applied ideas of gender based on the present ideologies of our human society

I know, I am being naughty using 'sex' and 'gender' interchangeably. What I technically mean is 'sex' or 'gender'. A shadow could decide it is male, but whether or not there's an energetic difference that would split the group in two is another matter. I am more interested in the latter, though I suspect the former has gone on among certain ones.

Maybe this is all down to some need for the mind to categorise in order to make sense of things, but there's some oddness to my experiences.

The fleshy one I knew when Shiri had selected a male body--why? For the heck of it? I am not sure. Only he really knows why he took that form. This is where my suspicions that some may settle on a gender for themselves and get attached to it (at least if they decide to put on skin fairly often).

The shadow I was thinking of in this realm and lifetime was around me when I was young in an energetic form. I personally suspect the reason I saw it as male is because it was sent to me by a shadow who appeared to me as male in Annwyn, so I agree with what Marrick is saying about a "spark" that makes a heaping amount of sense here. Oddity: there were other shadows around of a similar type, but I did not see them as having gender/sex. I was a child, so who knows why, but I think it is interesting that there was such a huge difference in the classification.

Kayako Wrote:I think the simpler, seemingly 'genderless' ones you mentioned appear as such to you because they aren't as well-developed or self-aware as the older ones. To put it simply, your brain can't apply it's ideas of gender to a being if there isn't enough personal data about the subject's personality and temperament to be had.

This is kind of what I am thinking, TBH. The one I identified as male in this life was not really endowed with an individual character--he was more of a construct, but I think that was his origin shining through.

Thanks for the posts! I'm not convinced that they have a sex, it logically seems that they would just select a form that was useful to them (if they took a body) and then maybe get attached to a gender or not. As energy there's no real reason, since shadow reproduction doesn't seem to need it.

Then again I would rather not piss one of the old ones off by being wrong in this matter! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->
2009-03-26 15:12
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Motley
Member is Offline
Elephant in the room
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 848
Points: 4325.00
Contribution: tick tick 

Post: #7
Re: Shadow Gender?
Interesting that this would come up today. We were discussing something, almost, similar in chat last night.

My spirit guide often does show up as male, but it's generally understood that it does that out of convenience. It has shown itself to me as female a few times. Probably because it wanted to set a different tone for the conversation. Not a shadow, but does fit under the energy being and gender thing.

[Image: motleybanner2.png]
"I inherited the spirit of the sun. I'll meet you when the day breaks through. It's time to shine and make all your dreams come true. Come on, wish upon a dog star!" -Hybrid
2009-03-26 16:44
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Selana
Member is Offline
Feral Classicist
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 75
Points: 445.00
Contribution: tick 

Post: #8
Re: Shadow Gender?
You have mad shadow invisibility skillz: this post is before mine, but it wasn't showing up til after my last post!

Archer Wrote:The majority of the "bigger" shadows I've met fall into one of three classes:

1) They have lived at least one life as a physical entity (like me!). That immediately causes gendering of an extent which may remain with them in future lives or in the rest of their shadow-life - a new perspective on things, as it were. Once they try on a physical sex (and try out gender roles) it could be that it's generally easier to keep wearing a suit of the same shape, if they continue to reincarnate.

2) They've spent enough time communicating with humans/elves/whoever that they've decided it is generally easier on humans to communicate with something "solid" rather than an abstract entity. So they wear a sex-shape (or gender-traits), a bit like speaking a foreign language with an accent.

3) Inherent sex bias from the observer. I'm thinking of a lot of the "hat man shadow" sightings, people calling Art Bell and so forth. None of those sightings seem remotely male to me, but they are almost always described as "he", sometimes "it", and practically never "she". Does that mean there's anything sexed or gendered about them? Nope, I think in general it's just a sign of the normalisation of male that occurs in so many (most? all?) modern Earth cultures. "Don't know what it is, let's call it a he!"

I think with the one I knew in Annwyn #2 and possibly #1 were behind the male form.
I totally forgot about all those ooga booga hat man sightings! It's probably stranger to perceive a shadow as genderless, than male.

Archer Wrote:With the bigger shadow I'm most acquainted with, I'm pretty sure his maleness is largely a product of #1. His first outing in the physical was as a male, and he got very used to that particular shape. It had an effect on him so profound that I would say he understands himself as much in terms of that life, as in terms of his natural form. Which, lol, arguably makes him human-kin. I must remind him of that next time we speak <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->
<!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Motley Wrote:Interesting that this would come up today. We were discussing something, almost, similar in chat last night.
I've obviously got special psychic chat powers. I don't need to install IRC. Not. <!-- sWink --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- sWink -->

Motley Wrote:My spirit guide often does show up as male, but it's generally understood that it does that out of convenience. It has shown itself to me as female a few times. Probably because it wanted to set a different tone for the conversation. Not a shadow, but does fit under the energy being and gender thing.

It's interesting that your guide has shown up as both genders. It makes a boatload of sense. Annwyn shadow has only ever appeared as male, which inclines me to think there's a bit of an attachment to the male form on his part.
2009-03-26 17:40
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Archer
Member is Offline
Suing You
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 2,813
Points: 14165.00
Contribution: tick tick tick tick 

Post: #9
Re: Shadow Gender?
Selana Wrote:A shadow could decide it is male, but whether or not there's an energetic difference that would split the group in two is another matter. I am more interested in the latter, though I suspect the former has gone on among certain ones.

I find it a little hard to really respond as I cannot imagine what "female energy" or "male energy" would be: I simply don't believe such things exist. Traits assigned to one gender or another tend to be products of culture: they are not totally consistent across cultures or times and are CERTAINLY not consistent across species . . . so how could they even exist as absolute concepts?

Quote:The fleshy one I knew when Shiri had selected a male body--why? For the heck of it? I am not sure. Only he really knows why he took that form. This is where my suspicions that some may settle on a gender for themselves and get attached to it (at least if they decide to put on skin fairly often).

On a totally pragmatic note, male bodies tend to be physically stronger and don't generally carry young. Also in many cultures males have a preferential position. As such it might simply be that most entities would look on male bodies as more convenient ones to live in - and thus possibly also get attached to assumed roles.

Quote:The shadow I was thinking of in this realm and lifetime was around me when I was young in an energetic form. I personally suspect the reason I saw it as male is because it was sent to me by a shadow who appeared to me as male in Annwyn, so I agree with what Marrick is saying about a "spark" that makes a heaping amount of sense here. Oddity: there were other shadows around of a similar type, but I did not see them as having gender/sex. I was a child, so who knows why, but I think it is interesting that there was such a huge difference in the classification.

Is it possible that the gendered ones were more adept at dealing with humans (or elves!) and so wrapped themselves in more humanlike (elflike) patterns?

Quote:This is kind of what I am thinking, TBH. The one I identified as male in this life was not really endowed with an individual character--he was more of a construct, but I think that was his origin shining through.

Who or what was he constructed by?

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

Quote:"I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered a hell of a lot more if I had been understood."

[Image: neverforgetm.png]
2009-03-27 1:55
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Selana
Member is Offline
Feral Classicist
Kintype:
Otherkin:
Gender:
Reputation: 0
Posts: 75
Points: 445.00
Contribution: tick 

Post: #10
Re: Shadow Gender?
Archer Wrote:I find it a little hard to really respond as I cannot imagine what "female energy" or "male energy" would be: I simply don't believe such things exist. Traits assigned to one gender or another tend to be products of culture: they are not totally consistent across cultures or times and are CERTAINLY not consistent across species . . . so how could they even exist as absolute concepts?

We actually agree on this. My inclination (and why I asked the question in the first place) is that there is no female energy/male energy. I believe this across the board; sex difference exists for reasons of reproduction, gender exists as a cultural construct. Some people will probably disagree with this.

Archer Wrote:On a totally pragmatic note, male bodies tend to be physically stronger and don't generally carry young. Also in many cultures males have a preferential position. As such it might simply be that most entities would look on male bodies as more convenient ones to live in - and thus possibly also get attached to assumed roles.

Totally with the strength thing. The social thing is sometimes true. Then again, I wouldn't rule out just liking it for personal reasons.

Archer Wrote:Is it possible that the gendered ones were more adept at dealing with humans (or elves!) and so wrapped themselves in more humanlike (elflike) patterns?

Almost certainly. It's hard enough having shadow energy and trying to communicate, or live for a while among non-shadows--why make it worse by keeping a, ehm, unique appearance?

Archer Wrote:Who or what was he constructed by?

The older shadow from Annwyn.
2009-03-27 10:22
Find
Quote
Give Thanks
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)