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Renamed from 'Satanism' - Nephilim & Neaderthals
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Post: #1
Renamed from 'Satanism' - Nephilim & Neaderthals
at all stems from my ponderings on how an angels would go about trying to usurp the Most High. The only thing I could come up with is an attempt to force one of his prophecies to fail.

Interestingly enough, that seems to eb the name of the game. God says that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent, what happens next? satan and his angels try to replace her seed with his own, the nephilim. later God says that he will plant israel (abraham's line) within a certain land. When Moses gets them there they find it filled with, lo and behold, nephilim.
God says he will never ever allow the jews to be wiped out, so what happens? Well, there was a certain crusade, there was the russian pogroms, there was hitler and now there is fundamental islam.

That's why i think that.

Don't get me wrong, i understand that not every person who is "satanist" is a devil worshipper or some such thing. I'm not calling those people anti-semites in general.
2010-07-24 15:56
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WolfVanZandt
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Post: #2
Satanism
That's where I can't make the popular opinion of what was going on in Genesis 6 jive with Genesis 6.

I've looked at the passage from every angle I could find, including analyzing the Hebrew and I can't make the offspring of the "son's of God" be the Nephilim. There are two groups mentioned. The "men of renoun" and the "Nephilim" and the words and grammar of Genesis 6 seem very clearly to point to the men of renoun as the offspring of the angels and human women.

Scientifically, there's one creature that can fit the bill as the offspring of the angels and women, It's the only nonhuman hominid known that can produce biologically viable offspring with humans, and that's Neanderthal.

Also, I don't believe the angels of Genesis 6 were Satan's angels.

You're right, though, Satan does want to usurp God's position but that was out of arrogant ignorance. There's no way that a finite, created being can affect an infinite Creator at all. I think he's got it now and he will settle on corrupting, crushing, and ultilately destroying God's creation. That's the pattern I've seen from him.
2010-07-24 19:08
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Post: #3
Re: Satanism
I've looked at the passage from every angle I could find, including analyzing the Hebrew and I can't make the offspring of the "son's of God" be the Nephilim. There are two groups mentioned. The "men of renoun" and the "Nephilim" and the words and grammar of Genesis 6 seem very clearly to point to the men of renoun as the offspring of the angels and human women.

I hear your pain. it's difficult and no one agrees. Some bible translations even just leave the word untranslated.

if you ahve a lot of time, this guy gives a good presentation on it all.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-W6c9a3ldQ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-W6c9a3ldQ</a><!-- m -->

It's in nine parts though...so......take a vacation..heheh. What the videos do is argue that "nephilim" should indeed translated to "giants" rather than "fallen." if that si the case, then the nephilim were indeed the offspring. However, what myabe, just maybe, the passage hints at is the descendants of the nephilim, as per jewish tradition. if i recall correctly Isaiah tells us that the nephilim themselves are dead and gone completely, even spiritually. But nothing, not even jewish tradition, Enoch..etc...has anything to say about kids the nephilim giants may have fathered....so...that's what is itneresting to me...but I digress.

You're right, the Genesis 6 angels weren't likely Satan's angels to begin with. i do think their actions were his idea though. enoch tells of how some of the angels were decieved into doing that stuff.
2010-07-24 19:24
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Post: #4
Re: Satanism
Heh, I think they just wanted sex...

What it looks like, to me, happened is that the Nephalim became traditionally associated with the angels and, now, people feel like they need to make the scripture line up with the tradition instead of vice versa. I am suspicious of tradition, both Christian and Jewish, over history (scripture). To much imagination might have taken part in its formation and once it's established, it's almost impossible to alter.

I'm not dogmatic about this but I suspect that Therians may be the offspring of the angels of Genesis 6. Like I said, Neandrthal fits the bill. One of the observable traits of Neanderthal are shovel teeth. THere are three ppulatons that I've been able to find that show a high frequencey of shovel teeth - Native Americans, Melungeon groups in Appalachia, and Therians. There's no telling where the small Melungeon population might have picked up the trait. The Therians, in the form of the Neuri - their description in Herodotus, on Scythian art peices, and from other sources seem very much like modern Therians - were originally from Eastern Europe and Central Asia - that seems to be the origin of Native Americans. There is quite a considerable Therian-like tradition among Native Americans, also. Further, some of the latest Neanderthal fossils coincide with the earliest reports of Therian-like activity - the Neuri of the Black Sea region.

Where I'm not willing to say that this "historical reconstruction" is the way things were, it's provocative to me.
2010-07-24 19:46
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Post: #5
Re: Satanism
Except that neandertal is quite old and restricted to northern Europe....and is astonishingly adapted to very cold climes.

Melungeon would likelly just get their incisors from Native American heritage. My daughter is half navajo and has the incisors, however, she is also blond haired, blue eyes, and white skinned. Shvel shaped incisors first appeared in an older hominid form, Homo erectus. H. erectus is the group that is found in Asia. Europe had H hidelbregensis which did not have the incisors. hidelbregensis would be the origin of later hominds in Europe so I need to read more on neandertal having those incisors.

I am unfamiliar with the idea of Therians being an actual old ethnic group.....could you please elaborate?
2010-07-24 19:54
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Post: #6
Re: Satanism
The Neanderthal specimens used in the recent research on Neanderthal DNA came from Spain and the Crimea.

It's certainly controversial that theriansthropy is genetic but there is some support (such as the prevalence of shovel teeth and of auroimmune disorders). It's not a dead issue by any long stretch, though.

And like I said, I'm not dogmatic - it's just the best theory I've been able to come up with to make all the pieces fit.
2010-07-24 20:53
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Post: #7
Re: Satanism
WolfVanZandt Wrote:That's where I can't make the popular opinion of what was going on in Genesis 6 jive with Genesis 6.

I've looked at the passage from every angle I could find, including analyzing the Hebrew and I can't make the offspring of the "son's of God" be the Nephilim. There are two groups mentioned. The "men of renoun" and the "Nephilim" and the words and grammar of Genesis 6 seem very clearly to point to the men of renoun as the offspring of the angels and human women.

Scientifically, there's one creature that can fit the bill as the offspring of the angels and women, It's the only nonhuman hominid known that can produce biologically viable offspring with humans, and that's Neanderthal.

Really it's an unpopular, or more precisely uncommon opinion of Genesis 6.

What is preventing you from linking the groups? The Nephilim ended up under various names, some performed heroic deeds, were the men of great strength, and the various tribes. "It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth- when the divine beings cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring." It's a complete thought. Though more information does appear, and is more clear in extra-Biblical texts.

Scientifically your idea falls flat on some many points. I'll stick with the obvious one that's on topic though. Neanderthals while of a more solid build were essentially the same height as contemporaneous humans, the Nephilim are always described as being a lot taller than normal people, to the point that some translations (that I hate) actually just call them giants. Even if you ignore that, the other descriptions don't really match up either.

Varka, you bring up a good point, I'd add some forms of Hinduism to the list, even more mystic forms of Christianity and Judaism. I would argue Buddhism though, while we can perceive it as a notion of Godhead, and I'll admit, I do, as it is a non-theistic or atheistic religion depending on the vehicle, and some pantheism, the notion of being Godhead doesn't match up in a lot of cases.

Acta non Verba, I have to say, I really like your notion of Nephilim and the attempt to undo/prevent prophecy. While I've never considered such a thing, there is actually some interesting theological implications and support for that. If I don't do my temple retreat before next semester, I may end up toying around with this idea...

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2010-07-28 3:56
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Post: #8
Re: Satanism
Gesigewigus: Shraman FTW! At least my religion seems to fit best in that niche....minus the pacifism part. I sorely wish there was more information on that tradition and the other anti-Ishvar stuff like Samkhya. Alas! Lost to the sands of time....and the regular sand I imagine >..>

I should mention something however....if we go with the interpretation of "Giant" for that verse....and assume it actually occurred, I should bring up the point that Giant doesn't necessarily mean they Huuuge but "Relatively Large" in comparison. You might recall that Goliath..himself a "Giant" apparently measured at around 6'4....and that would have been rather large considering many ancient people rarely broke the 5'5 mark in alot of cases (Greeks, Romans,etc.) save for the Celts and such who were definitely getting adequate nutrition and averaged rather large compared to their more "civilized" enemies. Additionally it could also be a metaphorical useage..exaggeration perhaps as the author(s) also stress their non-physical attributes as well. Just some things to consider.

“A considerable percentage of the people we meet on the street are people who are empty inside, that is, they are actually already dead. It is fortunate for us that we do not see and do not know it.”
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2010-07-28 22:41
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Post: #9
Re: Satanism
Varkadevi Wrote:Gesigewigus: Shraman FTW! At least my religion seems to fit best in that niche....minus the pacifism part. I sorely wish there was more information on that tradition and the other anti-Ishvar stuff like Samkhya. Alas! Lost to the sands of time....and the regular sand I imagine >..>

A lot from Sanatana Dharmic faiths can be reconstructed, you just have to be willing to read lots of little texts, and try your hardest to divorce what you're reading from any other part of the current body of information. Also, look outside the system. Some of the most relevant and unaltered information I've found on Rakshasa has come from folklore in Buddhist countries, rather than surviving scriptures of the early Vedic system.

Quote: I should mention something however....if we go with the interpretation of "Giant" for that verse....and assume it actually occurred, I should bring up the point that Giant doesn't necessarily mean they Huuuge but "Relatively Large" in comparison. You might recall that Goliath..himself a "Giant" apparently measured at around 6'4....and that would have been rather large considering many ancient people rarely broke the 5'5 mark in alot of cases (Greeks, Romans,etc.) save for the Celts and such who were definitely getting adequate nutrition and averaged rather large compared to their more "civilized" enemies. Additionally it could also be a metaphorical useage..exaggeration perhaps as the author(s) also stress their non-physical attributes as well. Just some things to consider.

*nods* In Numbers though, there is a verse about encountering Anakim (Nephilim) and the Jews "were like grasshoppers to them." This can be a reference to size, or power, unfortunately it's open there. I do agree though that in reality the giant factor was probably more of a byproduct of being from a more advanced society with better nutrition.

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When we first begin all things simply are.
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As we learn all things are internal.
As we understand all things are not.
2010-08-03 4:01
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Post: #10
Re: Satanism
allegedly.......

based on ceiling height of structures, the Hebrews of the time averaged five feet tall.
2010-08-03 13:39
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