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On the Fae
Acta non Verba
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Post: #31
Re: On the Fae
Quote:I'd be careful how you word your replies as some members here actually identify as Seelie or Unseelie fae.
I define ;'Sidhe' as a subset of the nephilim. They ahd no other realm they lived in, they were simply a tribe of people with angelic "blood" if you will.

Since I know that people will reject that idea out of hand, i don't see the need to mince words too much. I didn't call anyone names or deride anyone's intelligence, but i simply do not believe that seelie and unseelie exist at all outside of romanticism. I realize that some people report such memories, but if I had to submit my own research to the every reported memory I'd get nowhere.

So rightly or wrongly, i reject any "memory" that is something i myself have not experienced. i don't do this to be mean, but simply because...what else can i do? I am trying to remain objective. As objective as possible when working with so many unfalsifiable concepts. I have had experiences that some would call "memories" but i even treat my own with heavy skepticism...i won't even come to the point where I will call them actual memories, there are other possibilities for them that i cannot rule out.

And last time I checked, the Seelie and Unseelie were around in literature waaaaay before Shakespeare wrote about Queen Titania and Queen Mab. They're found throughout folklore and legends across many different cultures, under many different names. I'm fairly certain that Shakespeare never referred to them under such names, Winter/Summer maybe, but not by their Gaelic names. As for referring to them as the Winter and Summer courts, I thought I explained that Winter would simply be another name for the Unseelie and Summer another name for the Seelie courts?

Really? like what? i would be genuinely interested in sources for my own database, if you will. The most I have ever found is a vague reference to "scottish folklore" as being the origin of the notion of seelie and unseelie faeries. Even in that, it was more a classification, placed by humans, based upon faerie behavior rather than insight into actual faerie political systems or something like that (which they implemented themselves) (BTW...i didn't mean to suggest Shakespeare invented the concepts...my apologies for not being clear)

IMO...another word for this kind of thing is stereotyping, which is exactly what i think seelie and unseelie is. Stereotyping done by humans, as we are wont to do.
If you don't remember any courts of fae or any politics, etc. you could simply have stated that.

Well, i think it quite relevant to point out the glaring possibility that the concepts are actually simply human invention.

You yourself use it to descibe your own 'kin type. And if "sidhe" is incorrect, what other term would you have us use that's more appropriate?

Indeed, but I also see it as vital that the word not be mistaken for anything other than a Gaelic word used by Gaelic speakers.

As i stated above, i see the 'Sidhe" as a subset of nephilim (angel/human hybrids). it is my hypothesis, based on migrations of the Indo-European language group and on my own unfalsifiable energetic senses (if that is indeed what they are), that groups of humans imbued with the angelic "DNA" migrated across northern Europe from the Mideast, isolated, and changed a bit as such populations typically do. i see no reason why such isolation, which is proven to effect the phtysical gene pool, cannot also effect energetic signature.

So i have simply used an existing word 'Sidhe' for what i think was a population of nephilim descendants that neded up on the british isles. like I said, people will reject this out of hand, but i am definitely ok with that.
2008-10-06 17:46
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Post: #32
Re: On the Fae
That seems a lot like taking a word that refers to one thing, and deciding to use it for something else entirely.
No offense Acta non Verba but that is one of the things I find the most counterproductive (amongst other things) within the otherkin community today.
What basis have you for reinventing the defenition of the word Sidhe other than your whim?
Why not use a more appropriate word or wording such as "decendants of nephilim"?
And how does this work for people who do not believe that angels have ever been able to manifest physically on this realm in a manner that which would allow them to breed other than through (re)incarnation? (Some angels included.)

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2008-10-06 19:08
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Post: #33
Re: On the Fae
Acta non Verba Wrote:
elinox Wrote:And last time I checked, the Seelie and Unseelie were around in literature waaaaay before Shakespeare wrote about Queen Titania and Queen Mab. They're found throughout folklore and legends across many different cultures, under many different names. I'm fairly certain that Shakespeare never referred to them under such names, Winter/Summer maybe, but not by their Gaelic names. As for referring to them as the Winter and Summer courts, I thought I explained that Winter would simply be another name for the Unseelie and Summer another name for the Seelie courts?

Really? like what? i would be genuinely interested in sources for my own database, if you will. The most I have ever found is a vague reference to "scottish folklore" as being the origin of the notion of seelie and unseelie faeries. Even in that, it was more a classification, placed by humans, based upon faerie behavior rather than insight into actual faerie political systems or something like that (which they implemented themselves) (BTW...i didn't mean to suggest Shakespeare invented the concepts...my apologies for not being clear)

Many wellknown stories including the Mabinogion, The Book of Leinster, any of the four great cycles of Irish mythology (Mythology Cycle, Ulster Cycle, Fenian Cycle, Historical Cycle) mention beings that could be considered "faeries". I'm mostly familiar with the Irish faeries so that's all I can really refer you to. And I am by no means an authority on the fae, I can only tell you about what little I do know. But as with most mythological creatures, there are many different names for them across many different cultures.

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2008-10-06 20:22
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Post: #34
Re: On the Fae
Freetha

Quote:What basis have you for reinventing the defenition of the word Sidhe other than your whim?

Since the word "Sidhe" and the stories regarding them really give no origin for them, I don't feel that I have reinvented anything. I do actually use the Sidhe to refer to exactly that group from celtic mythology...however, my own seeming energetic senses tell me that they seem to have this connection to the nephilim.

To put it another way, I think the origin of the Daoine Sidhe is the nephilim.

Furthermore, given the tendency of mythologies to state that the dannan BECAME the SIdhe, there is a bit of support for this notion in that some scholars have traced the Dannan as coming to the Northern isles from areas very near the mideast.

And how does this work for people who do not believe that angels have ever been able to manifest physically on this realm in a manner that which would allow them to breed other than through (re)incarnation? (Some angels included.)

It doesn't need to work for them. they can reject the notion completely if they wish.

Secondly, how is that not a reinvention of a word? This time "angel." The word has long meant to describe biblical messengers from God but I see it reinvented all the time on Kin boards to mean reincarnating beings that don't even have to serve a deity.

Elinox:

Many wellknown stories including the Mabinogion, The Book of Leinster, any of the four great cycles of Irish mythology (Mythology Cycle, Ulster Cycle, Fenian Cycle, Historical Cycle) mention beings that could be considered "faeries".

I've read all of those and not one mention classifying fae beings into seelie or unseelie based on their interactions with humans.
2008-10-07 18:23
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Post: #35
Re: On the Fae
Acta non Verba Wrote:
Elinox Wrote:Many wellknown stories including the Mabinogion, The Book of Leinster, any of the four great cycles of Irish mythology (Mythology Cycle, Ulster Cycle, Fenian Cycle, Historical Cycle) mention beings that could be considered "faeries".

I've read all of those and not one mention classifying fae beings into seelie or unseelie based on their interactions with humans.

I'm sorry, I simply meant that those stories referred to fae-type creatures, not necessarily by calling them seelie or unseelie. Upon looking at wikipedia, the terms seelie and unseelie seem to have come from a book on faeries published in 1978. I must have been mistaken and just heard the terms and assumed that they were old and correct, my apologies.

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2008-10-07 19:08
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Post: #36
Re: On the Fae
No apologies needed. I am genuinely interested. Enough to say that wikipedia is a little dodgy and it may be worth digging deeper into.
2008-10-07 19:15
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Post: #37
Re: On the Fae
Elinox Wrote:Upon looking at wikipedia, the terms seelie and unseelie seem to have come from a book on faeries published in 1978. I must have been mistaken and just heard the terms and assumed that they were old and correct, my apologies.

Er. Well that can't be right. Whatever their actual origin, there are definitely cites of real people (i.e. non fictional use) using the words well before 1978. For example, Chambers' "Popular Rhymes of Scotland", parts of which were published as early as 1826, records the word in use, so at least that early:

Gin ye ca' me imp or elf,
I rede ye look weel to yourself;
Gin ye ca' me fairy,
I'll work ye muckle tarrie;
Gin guid neibour ye ca' me,
Then guid neibour I will be;
But gin ye ca' me seelie wicht,
I'll be your freend baith day and nicht.


("wicht" = English "wight", a spirit of some type)

The words are genuine as far as I am concerned, at least in as much as they are terms humans apply to faeries. But as with many things in folklore, the origin is somewhat obscure because they were not invented by any one person or group. And of course fiction and modern enternatainment heaps more details and ideas upon them.

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2008-10-17 5:36
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Post: #38
Re: On the Fae
I love the War Glamour part. I didn't know it was related to Fae. I'm discovering amazing things around here that are related to things I do and feel.
When I'm walking on the street I usually feel too exposed and somewhat "attacked" by people staring at me. So I'll put myself in an armour and a cape and "grow" big dark blue dragon's wings and visualize myself as threatening and thunderous, and I'll feel protected then.

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2008-10-17 16:57
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Post: #39
Re: On the Fae
Acta non Verba Wrote:Secondly, how is that not a reinvention of a word? This time "angel." The word has long meant to describe biblical messengers from God but I see it reinvented all the time on Kin boards to mean reincarnating beings that don't even have to serve a deity.

I, for one, think it is entirely stupid for people to use "angel" to mean any kind of glowing-light-type-being. That use of "angel" is by no means universal.

Acta non Verba Wrote:No apologies needed. I am genuinely interested. Enough to say that wikipedia is a little dodgy and it may be worth digging deeper into.

Actually, the only study that I am aware of examining the accuracy of Wikipedia found it to be more accurate than Encyclopedia Britanica. Yes, on Wikipedia anyone can add anything incorrect - but anyone can remove the errors as well, whereas with a printed encyclopedia an error is in place until the next volume is released, and possibly considerably longer.

On the general topic in hand - if seelie and unseelie are indeed relatively modern terms, I find that very interesting. It certainly throws doubt on people who claim to be reincarnated fae who used those words amongst their own people.

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2008-10-17 21:54
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Post: #40
Re: On the Fae
I think wikipedias main problem is when it is something in high debate, be it in the scientific world or among the general populace. That being said, I too think that it is wrong concerning "seelie" and "unseelie" only showing up in 78. They concepts came about before that
2008-10-18 7:10
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