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Information on transsexuality and otherkin
Noise
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Post: #1
Information on transsexuality and otherkin
So, so, OKP, hey, hi, what's up!

I have been making the people in the Tumblr otherkin community miserable by pointing out that no, some things are not in fact, okay. And one of the things people do is compare themselves to transsexuals.

I am not fond of this, I am not sure if this is okay or not, but my every instinct is going "DAMN IT NO THIS IS WRONG."

But, before I get to write a post on this, I want to get my facts straight, and get lots of information from lots of people. So, I was wondering if those who are otherkin and transsexual would like to talk about the differences, similarities, etc between transsexual and otherkin identity.
2011-12-12 19:19
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skorpio
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Post: #2
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
I think there is nothing directly linked about being otherkin and transsexual, whatsoever. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to be both, though. Although I'm physically male, I don't identify as any gender.

I've heard some people comparing otherkin to being transsexual, described instead of a gender dysphoria, as a species dysphoria. Then again, you don't see people asking for species change operations to be made possible...or at least I haven't. Honestly I don't know.

"Think you're escaping and run into yourself. Longest way round is the shortest way home."
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2011-12-12 23:33
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Malakoi
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Post: #3
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
As a transient member of both communities, I think there's some common ground, both in reality and in the stereotypes that are associated. Could your negative reaction be a response to the stereotype, rather than the real similarities?

Body dysmorphia is an experience frequently shared by transgendered and Otherkin individuals, as an example.

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2011-12-13 3:52
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Noise
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Post: #4
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
Malakoi Wrote:As a transient member of both communities, I think there's some common ground, both in reality and in the stereotypes that are associated. Could your negative reaction be a response to the stereotype, rather than the real similarities?

Body dysmorphia is an experience frequently shared by transgendered and Otherkin individuals, as an example.

Well, I meant that it seems wrong in the sense that I think the comparison devalues the experiences and trials of transgender individuals. Mostly because, from my own experience, the stuff that 'kin go through isn't as severe.

Although maybe I've just adapted really well.
2011-12-13 5:24
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Seraphyna
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Post: #5
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
I'd say some 'kin have reactions as severe as some transgendered individuals and some transgendered individuals don't have reactions as severe as some 'kin. It's hard to say that one group has it "so much worse" than another. When you think about it, transgendered individuals are really the only group who can "fix" the issue. There are no species reassignment surgeries and most 'kin can't even try to solve the problem with tattoos and subdermal inplants...and if they can they would be stigmatized more than post-op transexuals if you ask me.

So while I think there's some overlap, and the two concepts are similar in many respects, it's hard to say that one group has more of an issue than the other...it's such an individual thing.

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"All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost."-Tolkien
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2011-12-13 14:35
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Acta non Verba
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Post: #6
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
I've seen the same discussions on Tumblr. It looked to me like the argument was that being otherkin CAN (not always) come with the same feelings of being in t he wrong body.

I Guess I can't see what is so wrong about making the comparison. It seems to make sense to me to liken feeling like an animal, or whatever, in a human body to feeling like a woman in a man's body, or vice versa. Each has a disconnect with inner feelings and outer physiology.
2011-12-13 20:39
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Estelore
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Post: #7
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
Noise, do you have any specific examples (quotes, links? either would help) of people who are
a) otherkin
b) cisgender or at least don't self-type as trans* AND
c) have stated direct comparisons between otherkin and trans* ?

If you have several examples of that specific situation, as opposed to the only examples we've personally encountered [transpeople who are also otherkin, stating that THEY experience similar sensations from both], then we can certainly understand being bothered by the issue... but as far as we are aware at this moment, the only people associating the two directly on Tumblr are those who are in BOTH categories and therefore can rightfully draw comparisons between them.

Please don't take this post as any unkindness or hostility, we're just seriously wondering if there actually are people making that comparison without belonging to both groups already... and if there are, we're wondering who they are, and where we can find them online to explain how they're causing disruptions for the people who have a right to claim both those labels and are trying to be understood. :-/

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2011-12-15 10:02
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Miniar
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Post: #8
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
I'm just going to copy-paste something I wrote on this exact topic on Tumblr the other day.
Now, off on Tumblr I tend to be a little less.... er... held back, 'specially when talking 'bout something that's personal to me, so what follows may not be quite the same as what folk are used to seeing from me.

I got linked to this post on account of me being, well, both a trans man and otherkin.

Now, here’s the thing, I find it offensive to compare being otherkin to being trans, and I’m both!
This isn’t because I find being otherkin offensive, far from it, otherwise I wouldn’t actually openly admit to being otherkin, but because I feel it does two things.

1. Trivializes and undermines Trans people’s struggle for their rights to being themselves, presenting as themselves, and doing what they can to make their bodies something they can live with.

Let me explain before you jump at this.
I can prove, quite easily, that human beings exist. I can prove, quite easily, that men and women exist. I can provide links and documentation to studies of the human brain, chromosomal anomalies, hormonal anomalies, other genetic anomalies, etc, etc, etc, that all provide trustworthy, peer reviewed, physical evidence that there are people out there that do not fit into the neat little categories of “xx = female, xy = male, end of story”, what I can not however, is prove that there’s a single human being on the face of this planet which is documented and proven to be not entirely human.
I, as a trans person, want the right to be referred to by the gender I identify with, a gender I can prove exists. I, as a trans person, want to have equal human rights to all other human beings, without some archaic focus on my genital status or who I choose to marry or so on.
In the battle of trans people for human rights a lot of the opposition have pressed the point of delusion. That all trans people are crazy because men can’t be women and women can’t be men. “What’ll they think of next? Will they demand to be acknowledged as cats and dogs?”

An here we come to the very point of this first problem.

My kintype is something that doesn’t exist on the face of this planet.
I sincerely identify as such, after years of doubt and skepticism and extremely carefully conducted forms of external verification which yielded the sort of result that still sends chills down my spine. (In short, I have more reliable reason to trust my belief than any other otherkin I’ve ever met.)
On the face of this planet, my kintype does not have any rights.
It’s not a native species, it’s not an “animal” even in the strictest sense, and it’s certainly not human.
If I were to strive to live as my kintype, then I would be a threat.
If I insisted on being treated as my kintype and was able to have my way, I’d surely be shot on the spot!
I would be, in every sense of the word, rejecting any and all claim to human rights, by insisting on being treated as my kintype.

Trans people have worked hard towards being allowed to just be human beings, treated as human beings, with dignity. To be able to have access to some of the most basic human rights out there.
Notice the repeated word there.
Human.

I’m glad you mentioned “Stigma!” by the by….
You see, there’s a reason why trans people have been fighting for these rights.
BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN DENIED THEM!
In fact, every November the 20th there’s a transgender day of remembrance held where the people who have been brutally murdered because they didn’t present as the “correct” gender are remembered, honored, and given our respect.
Not a single Otherkin has ever been brutally murdered for being “too much of an elf” or “a fucking dragon”.
This suffering. The murders, the rapes, the systematic denial of human rights, the beatings, the abuse from doctors, policemen, teachers, lawyers, parents, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,.. it’s being totally disrespected whenever otherkin start comparing themselves to the trans community.

2. It equates things that aren’t equal, redefines terms and abuses and appropriates the experiences of others.

There is appropriation when otherkin take the experiences of trans women (for example) who are human beings born with one set of genital and chromosomal arrangement but with a clear identification with the opposite set of human genital and chromosomal arrangement and say “That’s how I feel about being an elf(again, for example) in a human body!” or try and take the words and cause and lives and experiences of trans people in general and make them their own or present them as their own or even, again, just say “me too!”
It amazes me that people can’t see where the appropriation comes in.
Human beings are things that we can document exist. Human genetic, hormonal, and chromosomal anomalies exist. It doesn’t take a scientist to take the information on these things together and realize that it’s quite possible for someone to be born with a male wired brain even if their chromosomes are XX and they’ve got fully functional “female” parts!

However, due to the simple fact that human beings are not elves (to continue using the example) and elves can not be demonstrated to exist and even if they were to exist, due to them being a different species all together, it’s unlikely that their DNA were at all compatible with that of human beings to such an extent that the two would be able to breed and produce offspring (there’s plenty reason why this is a logical presumption), so there’s no reason to believe, in any way, that a human being could be born with a fully functional human body of either sex and a brain of an elf.

No matter how certain I am, no matter how good my reasons are, no matter how definitive my research is, I can never, ever, in any way, produce any physical evidence, what so ever, to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt, that my kintype exists, let alone that I am it.
However, I can point to almost every other person in my surroundings as proof that my gender identity exists and given sufficient funds to pay for it I’m certain I could find the physical evidence that I am and always have been it.

There’s a fundamental divide between these two.

I find it incredibly frustrating that people do not see it.

If my being otherkin is a result of an anomaly of the brain then that would mean that my kintype probably is not a reality in and of itself, but a construct of my mind to accommodate the anomaly of the brain.
My gender identity can be a construct of my mind to accommodate the anomaly of my brain, but men still exist.

I can demonstrate that the human being that is I exist and anyone I meet can clearly tell my gender.
I can not demonstrate that my kintype exists and nothing I can do would make anyone I meet be able to clearly tell my species (other than one weird ass human.)

I can prove that human beings of my gender identity exist.
I can not prove that my kintype exists.

_

Short version.
To say that being otherkin is like being trans because both deal with the mind and body not matching is like saying that religion is like science because both deal with the universe.

Just because you may have something in common does not mean that the two are “alike”, it simply means you have “something” in common.

Otherkin have not suffered like trans people have suffered. They haven’t faced systematic, society wide persecution.
Otherkin have no physical evidence to prove that they even can exist.
Otherkin identities are rarely as stable as transgender ones. A woman knows she’s a woman and doesn’t change her mind once a week, like the celestial who used to believe they were an elf who used to believe they were a wolf who used to believe they were a cat who used to believe they were a demon who used to believe they were a fairy who used to believe they were a shark who used to believe they were a dragon who used to believe they were a… (you know what I mean, we’ve ALL met these people!)

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2011-12-15 22:08
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skorpio
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Post: #9
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
Miniar Wrote:Not a single Otherkin has ever been brutally murdered for being “too much of an elf” or “a fucking dragon”.

This is just my opinion, but that might have actually happened.
A guy called Matthew Finnegan (Starblade Enkai), the guy who unintentionally started the "f**k you, I'm a dragon" meme by overreacting to everything, was stabbed last year and was killed, for no clear reason. He did have Aspergers though, and this may have been part of the reason. I don't think his "friend" properly explained why he killed him.


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That aside, I completely agree with your article Min. There doesn't seem to be much of a valid reason to argue about rights for otherkin, because there is no proof (for or against, that I can think of) that being otherkin is possible.

"Think you're escaping and run into yourself. Longest way round is the shortest way home."
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2011-12-15 23:13
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Nsashaell
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Post: #10
Re: Information on transsexuality and otherkin
Thank you, Miniar, for explaining my viewpoint better than I could have. My husband's a transman, and I've observed his depression and anxiety firsthand, and there's no comparison really. Especially because of all the societal stigmas and persecution, and the fact that a lot of transpeople feel that it would be better to die then live as the wrong gender. As much as being therian effects my life and gives me dysphoria, I can't say that I have a choice between either living as a wolf or killing myself. As Otherkin, we can at least fake our way along as humans, and for most transpeople faking their way as the wrong gender simply isn't an option. While intellectually these two concepts seem similar, they're on completely different planes.

Also, appropriation is dead-on. Good choice of words.

-Nia

Arion: Gargoyle, Erif: Asian dragon, and Shawn: Netjeri are three Otherkin members of system Nsashaell (nine people total). Others may comment occasionally.
2011-12-16 14:28
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