Human Possession (again)

stormchoirs Wrote:ok, so, today before oka went away I posted a question asking if anyone's ever heard of humans possessing demons....

the story is that a friend of mine was being attacked by shadow, four of them, well, while it was going on she was on the phone with another friend who was trying to use his higher self to protect her, well, he never showed up, instead what happened in the middle of the attack was one of the shadows just stopped attacking my friend, turned around and began attacking the other shadows until they were dead or left or whatever, doing all the thing that my other friend was trying to do, and then it just disappeared.....

a part I had left out cause I forgot, was that after this happened, the friend that was trying to do the protecting ended up feeling shifted into the shadow that had suddenly stopped attacking the girl and began attacking it's friends..... he could feel the wings and everything...

well, on oka, we determined that the shadow prolly wasn't possessed as it would be rather difficult to do, and most likely actually possible..... last thing I got to see before oka went away was deros saying that he couldn't help.......

so now the question has evolved to, could what happened have been the result of an accidental binding of the shadow???

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My first, and probably flawed, thought is: Are you sure the person in question ISN'T a shadow-kin?

Ah yes the subject of possesion . I'm of the opinion that if people do get possessed it's mostly low level demons/spirits that would do this because they're not exactly always the most intelligent bunch . I think we can all agree that a high level demon would be quite powerful in spirit demon form so I find it hard to believe that one of these would wastes it's time possessing some random person somewhere . If higher level ones does possess someone I suspect it maybe for one of the following reasons :

1. The person in question pissed off the demon at some point either in this lifetime or a past one and the demon is seeking revenge .
2. The person who had no idea what they were doing tried to summon a demon and possibly command them .
3. The person has moved into an area where the demon has already been so the demon gets pissed when someone moves into it's territory .
4. The person maybe of one those holier than thou people who quite frankly really piss me off too , demon or not .
5. The person once had a mutually beneficial relationship with the demon and suddenly decides to pull the plug for whatever reason .

I'm not claiming these as facts but I'd think it's quite possible these could be reasons for possession . Number 4 might be a bit cynical but oh well . lol

My take on it...

Possessing a shadow? That, to me, doesn't quite sound correct. If anything, I would that a small link formed between the man and the shadow and, thus, the man's desires influenced the shadow's desires to the point that the shadow began attempting to protect her, as well, and the man got a little dose of the shadow's "feelings" in the process. Not a direct possession, more a mutual exchange of feelings that instigated the shadow to act upon said feelings.


Now, on to this...

Shadowman82 Wrote:1. The person in question pissed off the demon at some point either in this lifetime or a past one and the demon is seeking revenge .
2. The person who had no idea what they were doing tried to summon a demon and possibly command them .
3. The person has moved into an area where the demon has already been so the demon gets pissed when someone moves into it's territory .
4. The person maybe of one those holier than thou people who quite frankly really piss me off too , demon or not .
5. The person once had a mutually beneficial relationship with the demon and suddenly decides to pull the plug for whatever reason .

All of the answers I'm about to give you are based on asking myself "what if" questions.

1. Revenge? If something is an irritant, you *remove* them, not go gallivanting about in their body. Even if you wanted revenge, there are far better ways to damage somebody than to possess them. *Maybe* if possession was the only manner you could cause them damage, but that's a rather large maybe and insinuates a lower level than what I believe you are speaking of.

2. This falls under number 1, but, ultimately, if someone were to summon me and do everything the correct way, it doesn't matter whether or not they were prepared for what was to come. It's business. Do what they say, take your payment, and it's over. Doesn't matter if they "try to command me" or not. Possession, though? Highly unlikely, unless they expressly asked me to do so (which would probably cause them some measure of damage, in and of itself).

3. Territory? Maybe if there was something important there, then, perhaps, although there are far better ways to get your point across.

4. Falls under number 1.

5. Not terms for possession. May fall under number 1 depending on the circumstances, but I don't see why I would want to possess someone simply because they decide they don't wanna be buddy-buddy with me anymore.

Well those are the only reason I could possibly think of if we assume that possession happens involuntarily . When it is done willingly it's called channeling I think .

Shadowman82 Wrote:Well those are the only reason I could possibly think of if we assume that possession happens involuntarily . When it is done willingly it's called channeling I think .

The difference between possession and channeling (with a spiritual medium), I would imagine, is that of who instigates the process and whether the vessel has consented or not.

Vessel instigates the process and has the most control of the situation -- channeling.
<> instigates the process and has the most control of the situation -- possession.
If neither have control over the situation, it's something else, I would imagine. This would only show up when an external source forcibly implants said <> into the vessel without help from either party.

("demons aren't the only things to possess -- the <> indicates whatever may do so)

Only reason I would consider possession was if i wanted a physical vessel... although I don't know why I would want that. Nine times out of ten, there's a better method.

Why indeed so that begs one to ask the question why if Possession is real it does happen if whatever the demons/spirits objectives are could be much better achieved otherwise .

Demon…such a subjective term , but what the hey …this is the language , I have to admit I really liked shadowmans comments ….

And I can see the sort of mix up with rain here …which basically boils down to higher and lower forms of life , just like humanity , other races have their off-shoots as well , but lets get down to the brass tack’s …

The simple question of “why” possessions happen …

Its rare ….hang on a sec and really let me ponder this …

Y’know …I really cant think of a single case in the last 2000 years of an actual demon ..a higher level entity , possessing a human …

Oh they used to love keeping a line of communication open with humanity …few demons would admit it , but they often found humanity’s thirst for knowledge quite fascinating , you could honestly joke that demons kept consulting hours , but they never possessed anybody …

If a demon got pissed at you …you’d basically end up a gibbering wreck , above all they are the undisputed masters of the Mind F**k…

But when it comes to possession…no channelling isn’t exactly possession , that’s if your referring to what’s generally known as trance mediumship …basically , think really short term Multiple.

Walk ins …isn’t so much possession more of an agreement for souls to swap places .

Actual possession…well shadowman your pretty much close to the mark , but its only done by very low level entity’s , these things are more raw emotion than actual intelligence , more instinct than reason , they’re also very rare nowadays …

Sometimes a possession is an entity invading and feeding off of an individual , I mean this is how the whole vampire thing started , but sometimes a possession happens for other reasons , what you have to understand is that its seldom…hell almost never a personal direct attack , its more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time , most of the time these low level entity’s aren’t even consciously aware , its like they live in perpetual darkness and silence ….honestly it’s a horrible existence.

So when they see a flicker of light , heat or sound …they’re drawn to it .

If you lived like that …wouldn’t you be ?

Over the years , there’s been a lot of speculation as to what they are …humanity as usual dubbed them demons , but what you have to understand is that “demon” is a multi-purpose term , applied to millions of different things …

Demon for most people here have more in common with the 72 spirits of Solomon…all it really is, is old human terms applied to even older beings …

Regarding possession …yeah we’d say demon , but its an entirely different class of being , to be honest with you I feel sorry for these things …once you get to understand them , its just horrible for them , they suffer like nothing else …

i wonder where you have your info from, jdrage.

JDRage Wrote:Y’know …I really cant think of a single case in the last 2000 years of an actual demon ..a higher level entity , possessing a human …

i can.

Quote:Actual possession…well shadowman your pretty much close to the mark , but its only done by very low level entity’s , these things are more raw emotion than actual intelligence , more instinct than reason , they’re also very rare nowadays …

i disagree. with both the "only low level entities" and the "rare" part. true, the more powerful ones (where "powerful" needs a definiton...) are less likely to possess a human or other being, but it does have its advantages once in a while. and you wouldn't even know about those cases. it happens more often than you think.

Oh don’t get me wrong I’m not saying that higher level demons “can’t” , they just don’t …don’t ask me why coz I don’t know *shrugs*

I hate using statistics ..but here goes , about 90% of all cases of dem….

Sorry of all cases of “supposed” demonic possession come through the Vatican….basically the catholic church , the other 10% come through …how should I say this without offending em ?…lesser respected religious circles ?

Though I have to say these ones are by far a hell of a lot more interesting …

A lot of that 10% originate from the African continent as well as south America …why are they more interesting ? Case studies have shown a lot more “Phenomena” , as well as the usual phenomena , speaking in tongues , having access to information that they wouldn’t be able to have , etc …

Clarify phenomena …

Farm animals dropping dead for no apparent reason , earthquakes , storms , various other atmospheric phenomena , cases of thermo kinesis ( things catching fire , things freezing solid ), poltergeist activity , smells , sounds coming from nowhere …

Its only vary rare that physical damage , wounds and welts appear on a possessed victim , and sadly there’s no super contortion ( head spinning ) and a distinct lack of pea soup.

So ok…if your going to take the catholic church at its word …oh sure , everybody from Beelzebub to Satan himself have possessed people …generals of hell and so on , problem is its bull …

Beelzebub …who or what is it ? A demon ? The devil ?

Nope …actually its an early Christian insult and blatant propaganda , Beelzebub is a bastardisation of another word , Baal , Baal is itself yet another moniker for Hadad who was represented as a fertility god …not a demon and about as far from malevolent as you can get .

But right enough the names go back and back again …old gods new names , early Christianity was just as fundamentalist as its modern counterparts , holding a policy of defacing older gods and promoting their own , I wish I could remember the name but there’s one old god they renamed and the translation literally means crap …

Now that’s just the one , but the fact is the whole hierarchy of Christian or Abrahamic ( Christian , Muslim and Jewish ) demons are just bastardisations of old gods …effectively , the original being may exist in one form or another …but the demons the Abrahamic religions painted effectively don’t exist .

Actually you do make a point in saying there needs to be clarification , not just between higher and lower level beings with the whole concept of demons themselves …

How would you see yourself ? As a low , mid level or higher level being ?…just as you are right now .

What factor would you use to determine such levels ?

What’s the difference between a ghost and a spirit ?

Always keep in mind that terminology is key here , because both terms can mean many things .

For the most part , when people say they’ve seen a ghost , they’re seeing what I call a replay , classic example is repeated activity at certain times done over and over again …

Oh...I have a goody , the battle of Culloden , here’s a link …

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that’s just one example , have a look for yourself , there’s millions of them .

These ghosts , don’t think , don’t feel, they couldn’t communicate with you even if they wanted to , because all they are is trapped energy , people who are sensitive enough to this flow of energy can see these past events unfurl before them…

If you like …there’s no soul there .

A spirit is something far different , it has thought , reason , feelings , will , it can act or react to its environment, you can communicate with it and it can communicate with you ..

So I think its fair to say that a spirit ( again remember the terminology ) is a higher level being than a ghost .

So lets look at a demon …and keep in mind the whole terminology thing .

There’s a whole plethora of beings out there , some are old …impossibly old and powerful , early humanity did get to know some of them , how and why ? I’ve no idea , some where worshiped as gods …

Y’know this is something you really have to take into consideration here , one mans angel is another mans god is another mans demon ..all three terms are highly subjective .

But is that it ? No …there are countless entity’s out there , some are powerful some are hardly noticeable , just like you have humans , goats , sheep …down to microbes and amoeba.

Put it this way …there are things out there that no human language has a word for .

But lets wrap this up …

In the last two thousand years …Christianity …more so than the Muslim and Jewish faiths , have reported thousands of demonic possessions by iconic demonic figures , some of the cases have been quite famous .

Beyond this we have a stand off I’m afraid …I can no more prove to you in some tangible fashion that “no” iconic demonic figure ever possessed anybody , than they can prove that they did …

What I can say is look at the evidence…I’ll put good money in saying that more than half of all the reported cases where faked ….

Oh here wait a second , I do recall seeing a program …basically pointed out a lot of the problems with possession , its an interesting view , it was …I think it was called true horror with Anthony head ( Giles from buffy) I’ll see if I can dig it up online …

Anyway , some of the cases where more blatantly faked than others , though there have been a good number of actual possessions , but by classical demons ?…or to put it another way demons from the Christian hierarchy …which basically means they never existed in the first place *shrugs*

I mean there’s been so many Lucifer’s , Beelzebub’s and Satans reported in these cases its ridiculous , so yeah there’s been thousands …if you actually believe it .

None of the cases have anything in common with the little facts we do have about particular entity’s like Lucifer and the end the only evidence we have of it actually being Lucifer is the entity that’s doing the possessing’s word for it .

There is evidence to show that what’s actually doing the possessing is in fact a lower level entity , the constant need for attention and dialog , the persistent lying , the wild emotional states …do you really think that a group of old farts repeatedly muttering the same words and quoting passages from the bible ( or to be specific the book of sacramental rites ( the one they use )are gonna get rid of anything even close to the level of power a being Lucifer would have ?

Particularly when you take into consideration what the bible actually is and who wrote and re-wrote it ? Or to put it another way , most of the stuff quoted as happening in the bible never happened at all , a perfect example of this is the exodus from Egypt…not only was there no mass exodus of Jews , the place Moses was supposedly taking them was in fact under Egyptian rule …I mean even recently its been considered quite seriously there was no Moses at all *shrugs*

( looks up at what he’s written )

My god!…an I was gonna level my gnome tonight ..

Where do I get my information ?…all over the place , I’ve studied , demons and magickal rites for years , spiritualism , the occult , history and mythology , you name it I’ve dabbled to one degree or another , I mean truth be told all the information is out there , all you have to do is look for it .

Ok…links

I had to add this one , I found it funny …

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True horror

Part 1
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Part 2
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKieA_9GeU&feature=related">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKieA_9 ... re=related</a><!-- m -->

Just follow the links on the site and you’ll find the rest .