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General opening for starters
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Post: #21
Re: General opening for starters
Archer Wrote:oh how I hate that meme, "Oh my god, rape is the worst possible thing!!!!"

I actually don't know this meme.

"Think you're escaping and run into yourself. Longest way round is the shortest way home."
- James Joyce
2010-10-05 7:32
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Post: #22
Re: General opening for starters
Archer Wrote:Personally I think general discussions of whether or not someone who has been raped sufferrs (and oh how I hate that meme, "Oh my god, rape is the worst possible thing!!!!") is largely irrelevant when dealing with a specific individual, as one person's reaction to a rape is likely to be very different from another person's reaction to an identical crime.

If someone is suffering, what is relevant is the nature of their suffering and the effects it has on them as an individual; not a general discussion about whether beings from realities very unlike this one can/do cope living here (answer: some cope, some don't, some walk somewhere in the middle).

"however, im not so sure the "its all about how you cope" is the reasoning behind pain....thats like saying a woman who has been raped can only judge her life after based on how well she copes - on which platueau do we judge from?"

im not sure where your hatred for that meme is relevant to my argument - but if you feel the need to vent then by all means....be my guest

alright...if having an analogy using a rape victim is largely irrelevant when discussing coping with pain, then would it please you if i change the analogy to a person who cuts their finger off by accident?

the overalll pint that i was trying to make was projecting ones feelings of "coping" onto anothers by way of dictating whether someone is or is not living in this world in a satisfactory manner

so to cope, in some peoples eyes, made the level of pain obsolete....or to put it not as succinctly.....to admit pain is to admit some great failing which should be felt with shame and told "you must try harder, like us"

rape victim, fingerless person, howling baby alike

sounds all rather callous if you ask me

"theres just something about you, i cant put my finger on it but it both scares and draws me to you"
2010-10-06 0:13
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Post: #23
Re: General opening for starters
Miniar Wrote:
Vibes Wrote:first off..the post after this one that says "my question was for vibes" i looked for it and have failed to find it..could you point me in the right direction so i could do you the courtesy of replying?
I should have quoted you directly maybe; like this..
Vibes Wrote:we seem to have a problem with understanding one another
or maybe one/both of us only wants to play games
Miniar Wrote:well, what part is it that I'm not understanding correctly?
Sorry, im lost there as well - my mistake Im sure
Vibes Wrote:considering this post, it is clear to me that you are a man of science and logic?..i studied logic, it was hard considering goes against everything i am, but i appreciate a mind who delivers something with logic...so thank you..albeit my lecturer died but while he taught me i respected his passion, just like i respect yours towards this topic
Logic, yes.. Science, well, I like to think so, to a degree, but not as much as logic.
The the respect for my "passion" is misplaced however.
I have an interest and an opinion and I enjoy debating, discussing and sharing such.
Passion however,.. I'm not sure I'm capable of that emotion.
far be it for me to tell you who you are, but i have suspicion that you are more than capable of passion...when you believe in something there is passion, when you dream and you wake up wishing to be back in that dream that is passion, when you put to your mouth the most delicious meal you have ever tasted in your life and you savour every mouthful - that is passion, holding your partner to you - passion, waking up and thinking its a great day - passion...spending years studying your otherkin soul - passion........everything that sparks something within you from the smallest thing to the most esoteric thing....it doesnt have to consume you like a cheap romance novel nor do you have to have wild eyes and shout from the roof tops like a hormone ridden boy...but yeh, maybe my sense is wrong


Vibes Wrote:now my understanding....time is a "stand alone" (following your terminology) object purely because our perception creates a reality that makes it "stand alone" (i would prefer to call time linear reality, but happy to call it what makes you comfortable)....should you de construct persons reality base then we will see far more mental institutes being built than would be necessary (and im of the mind that none are necessary)
I think perhaps you're misunderstanding what I mean by "stand alone object".
A standalone object does not need outside support, it can exist and stand on it's own.
What I mean is that it doesn't exist outside of what we believe/perceive. It doesn't exist on it's own, it can not stand alone.
yeh i think i did misunderstand you, it happens....and i agree...although i do think that our imagination and perception is far more powerful than we attribute - we can create things which then exist outside our perception and bounces around in the ether as an independant structure for all to invite into their world or leave alone....that one is a bit harder to explain, so take it or leave it


If you do understand and mean to disagree anyhow, I have to poke a little hole in your reasoning.
If a thing exists because it is perceived, then how does it exist outside of perception?

Time exists as a "concept", yes, but I do not believe it exists as anything beyond that.
The concept is a tool, not an independent function.

And yes, deconstructing people's accepted version of reality could have backlash, but that doesn't mean that the accepted version is 100% accurate.
when is anything ever a 100% accurate? everything changes and morphs and evolves - just look at science..i would say everything is inaccurate but all within a bubble of accuracy which we cant fathom, just yet in our current form...think of it as a mother allowing her child to do anything it wants unknown to the child that there are adult rules keeping that child free to do what it wants, when it wants. Like the family world works hard to feed the child and all the child can think to do is write on walls

Vibes Wrote:tomorrow, yesterday and two seconds after "now" exist by way of not only linear reality but also due to our projections ("hey what you doing tomorrow" "hey what happened last week")...relatively billions of times more powerful than the ideaology that is "time doesnt exist"
We also talk about things such as honor, justice, morals and ethics, trust, good and evil, etc, etc, etc,
Yes, these things exist, as concepts, as ideas, but you can not find a physical piece of honor, tangible justice, measurable ethics. We invent new ideas and concepts to use as tools to try and shape these into something that feels more tangible, but the concepts and ideas themselves are not.
I've never suggested that time doesn't exist as a concept, or an idea. I just do not believe it exists as anything beyond that.
i would say that time is a human construct, but i would also say that due to the power of thought we create things that go on to be independant, albeit not affecting the "there is no such thing as time/space" just the same as our reliance on time does not affect the overarching laws- hehe, the words of a mad man....

(Disclaimer; I'm not suggesting that we should abandon all ideas or concepts, or that they're of less value than physical, tangible, measurable, standalone objects, by default.) - disclaimer duly noted

Vibes Wrote:space doesnt exist outside of time ~(or as you call it, causality) and as i understand what you typed, i would revert back to the old argument - if the table is there, how do you know it doesnt leave when you exit the room....perhaps i misunderstand your argument there, i welcome a decline if thats the case
I do not.
What I do know is that if I enter the room, then that room has space. Be it physical, metaphysical, or "data alone", it has "space".
In that space, there is the room, and there is the table.
Without that space, there is no room, and thus, no table.

mmm, perhaps the argument shouldnt be space...maybe ive been using the wrong word...confused myself...its difficult to speak metaphysically using human words, very limiting....i would say that space is created to suit the viewer...both here and elsewhere

Vibes Wrote:the rest you typed - you speak within a human mind....a scientific mind..."if it cant happen here then it cant happen"....i put to you, human mind is not the absolute limit to reality so why discount............hey if that were the case then surely this otherkin thing would be discredited no matter how you or other members try to type logically (ive read it - alot of people within this community over emphasis the intellect in order to quantify their otherkin feeling....perhaps a way to substantiate the purported unbelievable)...so my deliberatioin is to say, if an orange is in half then its still an orange
I do not believe that the human mind is the absolute limit of reality.
Human perception is limited, the human mind is limited, it's limits are it's own, not that of other things.
I have moments when I have a hard time with euclidean geometry as I "feel" as though there are more than the three dimensions. Those days are largely spent being dizzy and disoriented as my senses and brain are not equipped to handle a non-euclidean perception of reality.
there are more than 3 dimensions...4 known but many many more to be discovered, so go with your feeling on that one

The otherkin-thing would not be automatically discredited, even if man's mind's limits represented the limits of reality as man's mind's allowed the existence of transmigration of the species for a long, long time. Far longer than the term "otherkin" has existed.
i have now lost where this reply came from...im not so good with quotes, way too confusing...but i would say that regardless of how far intellectually man has come, becoming aware and using our intuition has a long way to go..no amount of intellectual debate will sufficiently explain the things we feel

I think that flexing the intellect is important. Without rational thought, doubt, and critical thinking, we are suspending intellect, we are suspending disbelief, and we are setting ourselves up for harm.
I am reminded of an article of a man who lived without eating. The article told of his unbelievable existence, in some detail, and then near the very bottom of the article, there was a short mention of the fact that there were those that doubt the validity of his claims, but the article ended with the suggestion that until definitive evidence was given, we should suspend disbelief because "what's the harm".
What is the harm of simply accepting the unbelievable?
There are those that have died cause they opted for a "miracle cure" instead of "medical treatment" because they suspended disbelief.
There are those that have been robbed blind, because they suspended disbelief.
There are those that have spent their life savings, accumulated physical harm to themselves and their children, and lost dozens of years, because they suspended disbelief.
So yes, we hold onto our intellect and we flex that muscle.
Because the alternative is harmful in it's very nature.
Ignorance is Not bliss.

i agree..but i also think that we need to find balance...not everything intellectualised works, nor not everything intuitive believed works...trying to use all of our gifts together is the key....

Half an orange =/= a whole orange.
When an orange is cut in half, there's changes, damage, tearing to the skin, to the meat, to the whole, which can never be undone. Even if you hold the two halves together, the cut is always there, always present.
If you put one half in the bathroom, and the other half in the kitchen, then the same whole orange will not be in two rooms, one half will be in each room, and the two halves are not the same, and they'll never be "one orange" again.
if this is the case then how can you say you have an otherkin soul? wouldnt it be more apt if you said you were "part-otherkin"...the whole is always connected, whether its cut up or not...the only difference is that its a shame it was cut up in the first place, but we all know its still "one"



sorry about this disgraceful reply with lack of quotes etc....hope you can read it and apologies if some parts dont make sense...maybe i am a mad man....hehe

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2010-10-06 0:47
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Post: #24
Re: General opening for starters
Vibes Wrote:if this is the case then how can you say you have an otherkin soul? wouldnt it be more apt if you said you were "part-otherkin"...the whole is always connected, whether its cut up or not...the only difference is that its a shame it was cut up in the first place, but we all know its still "one"
For one, I don't say I have an otherkin soul.

Otherkin are people who believe themselves to be something other than a human being on a spiritual, psychological, energetic and some even on a biological level, and choose to identify with that non-human fragment of themselves to the point where they count it as a permanent and ingrained part of their personal mythology and/or identity.

My soul is not otherkin.
I believe it's mostly Rakshasa, partly elf.

It would not be more apt to call me "part" otherkin as I'm a whole person.
My soul has not been divided in any way either, so that's not a factor.

Whether a whole is connected while divided or not does not change that if you only have half an object, you do not have the whole object.

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2010-10-06 11:22
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Post: #25
Re: General opening for starters
Miniar Wrote:
Vibes Wrote:if this is the case then how can you say you have an otherkin soul? wouldnt it be more apt if you said you were "part-otherkin"...the whole is always connected, whether its cut up or not...the only difference is that its a shame it was cut up in the first place, but we all know its still "one"
For one, I don't say I have an otherkin soul.

Otherkin are people who believe themselves to be something other than a human being on a spiritual, psychological, energetic and some even on a biological level, and choose to identify with that non-human fragment of themselves to the point where they count it as a permanent and ingrained part of their personal mythology and/or identity.

My soul is not otherkin.
I believe it's mostly Rakshasa, partly elf.

It would not be more apt to call me "part" otherkin as I'm a whole person.
My soul has not been divided in any way either, so that's not a factor.

Whether a whole is connected while divided or not does not change that if you only have half an object, you do not have the whole object.


yeh well, i havent read enough to understand what you mean by rakshasa/partly elf...i mean, im sure i could google it (and probably at some point will when i am inclined to do so)....but i meant generally, within this community

soul comes from one ultimate divine - that being...we are all threads of something...just the same as everything we know/dont know...so yeh, division is not a factor in response to your "half analogy"

whether a whole is divided or not does not change that you are from a whole and will always be from a whole and no amount of division/sub division/separation will change that

the question that remains is that maybe our despair/lack of could because we deny that whole

i just want to know how to get back to that whole so i can do what i am supposed to do

"theres just something about you, i cant put my finger on it but it both scares and draws me to you"
2010-10-06 21:46
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Post: #26
Re: General opening for starters
You are free to believe that that's where you come from but to assert it as fact is to assert your beliefs as more "accurate" than the beliefs of others.

"I" am not from any "whole".
I am whole.

There is no one ultimate divine being in my world.

You can believe in one for yourself, but I am not from your beliefs.

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2010-10-06 22:33
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Post: #27
Re: General opening for starters
Miniar Wrote:You are free to believe that that's where you come from but to assert it as fact is to assert your beliefs as more "accurate" than the beliefs of others.

"I" am not from any "whole".
I am whole.

There is no one ultimate divine being in my world.

You can believe in one for yourself, but I am not from your beliefs.

thanks for your speedy reply

the thing is, its not just down to what i believe.....im just not sure if it was down to belief then i would be in so much pain

ive done everything to avoid it...to reject it...and have seen others who reject it as well...but it all comes down to the same thing....an orange can be cut in half and will spend its duration believing it is half now.....but when one reaches the end of this "time" one realises that you part of this whole all along

its not my belief...

back to me...my pain is due to the fact that i have this underlying thing for some reason yet i have to live in this body for some reason...i dont know why but all im trying to do is get it..just get it

for you..you have your own path...which is great, but being a part of the overall whole is something you have the luxury to deny...i dont, which is what im trying to figure out

am i mad? perhaps.

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2010-10-06 23:05
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Post: #28
Re: General opening for starters
Miniar Wrote:You are free to believe that that's where you come from but to assert it as fact is to assert your beliefs as more "accurate" than the beliefs of others.

"I" am not from any "whole".
I am whole.

There is no one ultimate divine being in my world.

You can believe in one for yourself, but I am not from your beliefs.

i think i should also say, given your depreciation of replies, that should you wish to talk to me in private about anything then i welcome it

thank you

"theres just something about you, i cant put my finger on it but it both scares and draws me to you"
2010-10-06 23:27
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Post: #29
Re: General opening for starters
Vibes Wrote:the thing is, its not just down to what i believe.....im just not sure if it was down to belief then i would be in so much pain
its not my belief...
Belief is what we have for things we can not "prove".
If this is not belief, then you should have proof to back up your claim.
Can you objectively prove this?
If not, then this is belief. Not fact.

Vibes Wrote:ive done everything to avoid it...to reject it...and have seen others who reject it as well...but it all comes down to the same thing....an orange can be cut in half and will spend its duration believing it is half now.....but when one reaches the end of this "time" one realises that you part of this whole all along
The mention of others in this context appears to be an attempt to make your beliefs more valid.
An argument from numbers is not reliable.
Millions of people can be wrong. Just cause others share your experience, does not make your experience objectively true.

When an orange is cut in half, it is cut in half.
If it weren't cut in in half, it wouldn't be cut in half.
A half orange is not the same thing as a whole orange.

No one is suggesting you reject your beliefs. The point is that by suggesting your beliefs are universally applicable and objectively true, you are placing your beliefs on to others.
If you can not objectively prove your beliefs, you have no right to suggest your beliefs apply to others and doing so is rude, at best.
It would be equally true if anyone else did it.
For example, if a die-hard-atheist were to come into the forum and assert as a fact that you, or I, or any one of us, did not have a soul, then they would be equally rude, no more, no less, to you when you stated in a factual manner that your beliefs apply to anyone other than you.

Vibes Wrote:back to me...my pain is due to the fact that i have this underlying thing for some reason yet i have to live in this body for some reason...i dont know why but all im trying to do is get it..just get it
Perhaps your hyperfocus is a fair part of your pain, as has been suggested before.

A lot of otherkin related "suffering" is a matter of self fulfilling prophecy.
If you see your life as punishment or imprisonment or some other sort of token of suffering, then you'll suffer even greater than all others around you, from utterly predictable, mundane tasks.
In fact, you may start seeking out negative experiences in order to validate your beliefs.

Vibes Wrote:for you..you have your own path...which is great, but being a part of the overall whole is something you have the luxury to deny...i dont, which is what im trying to figure out
The way this is written is to continue the aforementioned rude gesture of applying your belief on others.
I do not have "the luxury" to deny your beliefs. Your beliefs do not apply to me.
I have spent a long time on my personal path of self exploration and the exploration of my own beliefs.
I have had more, reliable, outside confirmation of my personal beliefs than most otherkin can dream of.
No singular divine being has ever been part of this belief.
It has never applied to me.

Vibes Wrote:i think i should also say, given your depreciation of replies, that should you wish to talk to me in private about anything then i welcome it
"given the depreciation"?
Do you actually mean to state, "given the decreasing value" of my replies?

I don't converse in private messages. If I have something to say, I say it where it can be heard. I am perhaps a little too honest and a little too open for the tastes of some but it's merely who I am.

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2010-10-07 9:02
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Post: #30
Re: General opening for starters
ah you replied...i came back on today to reply to my own post...in that i thought it was too flimsy, but thats what a few glasses of wine does to you..

so, one point to your corner...go on, you deserve it

i cant speak for others who you talk to, but i didnt feel you were too honest nor too open...but then i have seen nothing else but these posts from you, so take it how i view it...i did appreciate your replies though, whether i agree or not is part of the fun....the one thing we do share is honesty when discussing

i didnt mean to offend when i said you could email me, i thought it was the way around here as the other forum i was on has a thread with everyones contact details and one member here said i could contact her/him if i wanted to talk....so i wasnt singling you out

as for the self fufiling prophecy...true, this can happen...but im not searching things out, quite the opposite in fact...and just because you cant prove something under a scientific or logic umbrella, doesnt mean it stops existing - edit: ...maybe we just need more "time" (haha) for things to be seen for what they are

im going to be busy for a few days...thanks for taking the time out to correct me in my last post but i still stand by what i think...its not logical, but i'll be damned if anyone tells me its not real....

"theres just something about you, i cant put my finger on it but it both scares and draws me to you"
2010-10-07 11:46
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