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Falling during incarnation?
Kiyamvir
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Post: #1
Falling during incarnation?
So this question was bugging me for a while now. Is it possible for an incarnate angel to fall during their human incarnation? For example, if such angel is unaware of his identity but is a really dedicated Christian from childhood, hears 'the call' of God and really wants to serve him, but then, because of different factors (but still by his own will), rejects God? And I don't mean like a five-minutes rebellion, I mean becoming a full-blown follower of Lucifer and turning back on God completely to the point where he doesn't even acknowledge his authority. Would that count as a fall, I wonder?

The reason I'm asking this is because of my inner turmoil that I have. The above situation applies to me - only I never really considered myself an angel, mainly because I only found out I'm an Otherkin after my little 'fall'. But what really bothers me, is that I keep having dreams about me ripping my own wings off. Now, even though these dreams usually make no sense at all, the act of ripping the wings off is extremely realistic. It's like ripping my identity away, and leaves a terrible hole in my soul behind. Also, after I turned away from God, I didn't get a reaction that normal satanists get. I had like a huge inner drama, mental problems, this fear and guilt inside me, alongside with anger and the feeling that I lost something. Basically - for a long time, I went crazy. Still, I never went back to God - I simply felt that I can't. That no matter what I'll do, I can't turn back now, and I hated him for no rational reason.

Now, this is still a theory and I'm a bit pessimistic about it, but perhaps you guys could help me out?

Btw, I only realized now that this should be in the angel section. Sorry D:

A demon loves only himself.
2012-07-03 12:46
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Seraphyna
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Post: #2
Re: Falling druing incarnation?
I moved it for ya. If you ask me it is possible to fall while incarnate and I'm fairly certain I've heard some angelkin describe just that happening to them. That being said, I personally believe that the individual would have to be aware of what the are and what they're doing in order to fall. So the person would have to be aware that they are an incarnate angel and make that choice to turn their back on their god and "fall". I'll also add that I don't consider fallen angels to automatically be demons. That requires a whole other level of rejection of their patron deity and embracing of chaos completely as to change the very fiber of their being.

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2012-07-03 23:40
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Kiyamvir
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Post: #3
Re: Falling druing incarnation?
Mm, makes sense, I suppose. But, at the time of the fall, I was aware that I wasn't human, but I wasn't aware that I was an angel. Still, I'm pretty sure I fell , because I rejected God with my whole heart at that time, and I pretty much made my commitment to Lucifer. Also, before becoming a satanist, I treated confirmation like making my vows to God for life (I was REALLY into it. like, really. crazy catholic christian, ugh) and I later broke them conciously. Hm. I thought about it all day today, and when I realized that I'm fallen, something from the fall... returned. That feeling. Like a scar, a hole, right in the centre of my being - empty, and painful. Something that I tried to cover over the years, but I didn't cover it well enough. It's something that I can't describe - as if a vital part of me was missing, and the feeling doesn't pass. It's just there, all the time. Oh well. I guess it's time to get used to it .-.

A demon loves only himself.
2012-07-04 0:20
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Micah
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Post: #4
Re: Falling during incarnation?
I often feel like a big part of myself is missing spirituality-wise, even though I'm pretty content with my life in all other aspects. I feel as though I fluctuate between angel and demon, that a long time ago I made an irreversible decision and those angelic echoes kind of overwhelm me every so often. I know many angelkin are very sensitive and dedicated when it comes to keeping vows and honouring oaths. Maybe that guilt is the pain of breaking a vow you were very attached to, rather than a feeling of actually being rejected by God?

I can't really speak on the subject of following Lucifer, as I don't know much about satanism, but I was always under the impression that it was more of a belief that you are your own leader and make your own destiny and not really follow anyone at all. I think God doesn't particularly enjoy it when His angels don't follow Him mindlessly and start thinking for themselves, but from everything I've read He doesn't like it when humans do that either, so who knows? Humans that reject God seem to get on just fine though, so I like to think we can as well. But if you really are guilt-ridden over the fact that you rejected God, rather than outright rejecting Him and feeling nothing bad for it, maybe you would be forgiven? After all, someone who holds past mistakes against you even when you honestly and truly feel sorry for them, is someone who wouldn't be deserving of your time anyway.
2012-07-11 11:12
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Terro
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Post: #5
Re: Falling during incarnation?
Man it has been a while since I bit into one o' these!

From my personal beliefs on this topic, one that I have approached... no. Flat out, no.

Consider a time that you are drunk, you are hammered, completely and entirely blacked out, barely know your own name let alone who is there with you. In the morning you wake up, with that pounding headache, and say "The hell did I do last night."

This can be similar to incarnation.

Now, in that scenario, you can be responsible for things, if you go around smashing windows in your drunken stupor, find me a judge that will slam the gavel and say "charges cleared, you were drunk." So in that case, having a knock down drag out break down and swearing that you oppose the Creator would stick, except for this...

As an incarnate Angel, you do not have the capability to actually cause any outward effects. Imagine now that you are in this drunken stupor, while locked in a padded room without the ability to harm it, or yourself. What crimes could you cause?

You can make decisions because of your lack of knowledge on the subject, and say things that are hurtful, and your friends may hold those against you.

As an Angel, if this happens, you get back out of the incarnation, back upstairs, the others have a recap of just what happened. There is the moment of truth. If you facepalm and say, "wow, what was I thinking?" you can very well atone, however, the answer of (with now your full knowledge, faculties and capabilities) of "you know what, I was right, and it took that separate perspective to realize it, forget you guys, I'm out."

That is the way I see it. You can't really Fall, because to Fall requires and absolute knowledgable decision here and now when it is made. The seeds may be sown, but that is it.

My further personal belief is this (again, this is personal, and based on the analogy listed above)... To actively pursue such, believing you are an Angel, and believing you are making a lasting decision to go against your Creator is naive, it is irresponsible and it is arrogant. It is about as good a decision as being in that drunken stupor and thinking that it is a really good idea to get a whole sleeve of really embarrassing and pointless tattoos.

You are attempting to make a lasting and huge decision without (most likely) even 1% of the surrounding knowledge or experience that you should consider before even thinking about such a currently irreversible decision. Not to mention the nature of the Creator and actual service while here is most likely influenced by the simple views of mortal Humans reading out of a book translated how many hundreds of times and more often than not changing it to fit their own personal views/agenda.

Feel free to respond by the way in whatever manner you like. I know I haven't been around for a while, I never, ever mean to offend anyone (like the above personal belief, it is entirely about such a decision, not about you personally. I barely know you, just going off the idea of such a decision in general), but I do try and be as clear as I can be in my belief. I also have no ego that I am aware of, so even an answer of "Hey Terro, thanks for that but I think you're an idiot and here's why" is totally fine, actually it would be fun for me.

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2012-08-22 18:58
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Rain
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Post: #6
Re: Falling during incarnation?
Terro Wrote:My further personal belief is this (again, this is personal, and based on the analogy listed above)... To actively pursue such, believing you are an Angel, and believing you are making a lasting decision to go against your Creator is naive, it is irresponsible and it is arrogant. It is about as good a decision as being in that drunken stupor and thinking that it is a really good idea to get a whole sleeve of really embarrassing and pointless tattoos.

I shall disagree with you, Terro, on this point. To use your own analogy, there are certainly negative things that can be done in one's drunken stupor, but the loss of inhibitions, of restraint, is not *always* such a negative experience. If someone was completely incapable of socializing for fear of speaking, then it may be so that (slight) inebriation allows one to temporarily shed these self-enforced restraints.

*Logically speaking*, to rebel against one's creator is a good deal arrogant, selfish and unappreciative, possibly lacking in forethought and knowledge. Logically speaking, it is entirely possible that the first few words from your mouth will earn you naught but dirty looks and disgruntled peers. Sometimes it requires alcohol / incarnation to separate yourself enough to actually act upon the very things you are otherwise too frightened / logical to do. It may not always be for the best, and mistakes may be made, but it would be wrong to say that nothing good could come from it.


For what it's worth, I experienced an entity that interfered with me during the developmental stage. It seemed potent, and it may have even been the reason for my existence (I experienced an ingrained subservience and semi-fear towards it). I eventually (and quite suddenly) decided that I would rather attempt to eat it (and almost assuredly be demolished in the process) than remain as I was, and that was that. I only slightly regret breaking away (if it even existed); my action was hasty, but my existence as it is now is not unfavorable.

~~~
2012-08-23 11:24
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Terro
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Post: #7
Re: Falling during incarnation?
Oh no, there are plenty of negative things you can do...

But Falling? I believe that takes a deliberate and informed decision knowingly against a direct order.

Literally, saying screw you to the boss man an leaving doesn't even make you Fall. Now disobeyin the direct order from the Creator to return would.

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2012-08-23 15:28
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Rain
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Post: #8
Re: Falling during incarnation?
Terro Wrote:Oh no, there are plenty of negative things you can do...

But Falling? I believe that takes a deliberate and informed decision knowingly against a direct order.

Literally, saying screw you to the boss man an leaving doesn't even make you Fall. Now disobeyin the direct order from the Creator to return would.

Well, what exactly is a "Fallen Angel"? Is it a matter of sudden conflicting ideologies between creator and created, a disconnect of desire and compliance? Is it something more base, such as a sudden existential independence?

If an angel remains unchanging, but the creator itself changes until such a time that the angel finds itself unable to remain tethered, is the angel still considered "Fallen" despite faithfully upholding the very principles and values it was instilled with upon its creation? If one were to receive a direct order from the creator towards Sin, to go against the creator's designs, would disobeying said order cause one to fall? Obeying it?

~~~
2012-08-23 16:28
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Terro
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Post: #9
Re: Falling during incarnation?
When the Creator changes I will let you know, haha.

However. Yes, the Creator makes the rules. You disobey, you get the boot. Ultimate authority, there is no union dispute or collective bargaining or appeals process.

Falling for the "right reason" is half the reason for Falling. And the "right reason" is something that by my believed memories I almost never seen as anything near right or reason


Again, others may have different beliefs or supposed memories than my personal supposed memories on this matter.

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2012-08-23 16:52
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Post: #10
Re: Falling during incarnation?
Terro Wrote:Falling for the "right reason" is half the reason for Falling. And the "right reason" is something that by my believed memories I almost never seen as anything near right or reason

Could it also be that your view in this regard is compromised because you are NOT fallen? As you said, angelics are programmed to obey their Creator, in which case the mere concept of 'falling' is so foreign to you as to be absolutely alien and distasteful. Therefore, there would be no "right reason" to fall in the mind of an angelic. Ask a fallen angel on the other hand and well, I'm sure they thought it was a very valid reason or else they wouldn't have made that choice, right?

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2012-08-23 20:11
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