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Demons and Fallen
chaitea
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Post: #1
Demons and Fallen
I know the two get mixed up a lot, so I’m interested in hearing this straightened out by those who might actually know a thing or two from ‘experience’. Can fallen be considered demons, and under what circumstances (if any)?
I’ve heard that fallen can become demons in some situations, but otherwise the two are separate. What with fallen once having been angels and demons always being demons.

Also, how do fallen and demons typically get a long? Or is does it almost always depend on individual circumstances?

Basically I’m interested in any connections or correlations that can be drawn (or shattered) between the two.

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2008-04-26 19:58
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Archer
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Post: #2
Re: Demons and Fallen
chaitea Wrote:Also, how do fallen and demons typically get a long? Or is does it almost always depend on individual circumstances?

I would say the answer to your second question here is an unequivocal "yes", as it would be when asking that of any two groups with massive variation within them.

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

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2008-04-26 20:20
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Seraphyna
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Post: #3
Re: Demons and Fallen
chaitea Wrote:Can fallen be considered demons, and under what circumstances (if any)?

This is a much debated question. I feel that angels and demons are inherently different, so fallen angels would still differ and never truly be demons. However, if a fallen angel were to give themselves entirely to chaos, then they wouldn't be distinguishable from demons unless one could detect that subtle difference that differentiates angels from demons.

chaitea Wrote:Also, how do fallen and demons typically get a long? Or is does it almost always depend on individual circumstances?

Fallen and demons can get along, or not. Same with fallen and non-fallen or non-fallen and demons. If you put a bunch of people from different countries, some would get along, others would tolerate each other, and yet others would start fights....angels, fallen angels, and demons are no different. It's a pretty individual thing.

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2008-04-27 5:12
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simim23
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Post: #4
Re: Demons and Fallen
Don't have any memories of any fallen.
Don't have any memories of meeting any fallen.
Don't think I've met any fallen, at all.

Therefore I could not tell you. XD

But I'm not any sort of fallen angel. That would imply some sort of transition from angel to demon, which as far as I know, never happened like such in my case.

I still tend to separate the two.

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2008-04-27 8:04
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Qarael
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Post: #5
Re: Demons and Fallen
Hmm... nah, not the same, on two levels. The first level being the classical picture of a demon (the gruesome minion of Satan type). While it is definitely possible for one of the Fallen to go that far off their nut, they don't usually. They are generally just... virtuous angels who fell from grace, nothing more or less. As to how these two types interact, only well enough for the demons to try and recruit the Fallen. Otherwise, demons find the Fallen to be made of suck and fail.

The second level of disagreement being that what the Otherkin community has recognized as 'demons' is entirely separate from the classical view. The only relation between angels and demons in this regard is the general tendency to follow order/chaos (respectively). Otherwise? There's no connection. And the coalesced-chaos type of demon isn't something one can become (I think). You either are or you aren't.
I don't see why the two can't get along. *shrugs*

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2008-04-28 7:25
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chaitea
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Post: #6
Re: Demons and Fallen
chaitea Wrote:Also, how do fallen and demons typically get a long? Or is does it almost always depend on individual circumstances?

That was horribly phrased on my part. I guess I’m more after the idea of having once been on opposite sides (for example, say the ‘First War’) and then ending up on a similar side. The idea of turncoats and what nots. If it even was demon being on the opposing side of that thing, and not just the host itself. I can never tell (probably why I’m asking).

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2008-04-29 15:00
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Post: #7
Re: Demons and Fallen
The thing is, the "First War" is a paradigm that only applies to some individuals - probably most of the Judeo-Christian angel types, but not necessarily anyone else. As such, who was on what side in it is a bit like asking whether Capitain Picard was with the Rebellion or the Empire.

I might not have understood what you were asking/saying (especially with my current mental faculties!) but an attempt to tie in demons - and for that matter even other fallen and angels - into your memories, if they aren't from your paradigm, is likely somewhat futile at best.

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

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2008-04-29 22:38
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Ges
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Post: #8
Re: Demons and Fallen
Archer Wrote:The thing is, the "First War" is a paradigm that only applies to some individuals - probably most of the Judeo-Christian angel types, but not necessarily anyone else. As such, who was on what side in it is a bit like asking whether Capitain Picard was with the Rebellion or the Empire.

But all myths about YHWH, really are about reality, just ignore the cranky old man who hates foreskin :-p So totally not what I believe, just cynically agreeing with you point, and essentially posting responses I've gotten to similar comments in the past.

Anyways, personally in my usage and understanding of the terms. Fallen and Demon are one in the same, the main difference is how someone wants to identify. It's like immigrating, do you considering yourself a Canadian, or a British immigrant? Do you cling more to what you were, or what you are?

Also in my system, there is Descended, which sometimes lines up more with how some people use Fallen. The analogy is Fallen are the people parents kick out of their house, Descended is someone who moves out. Fallen are "removed" or "banished" from their place within their paradigm, where as a Descended is more like the Celestial that says "You know what, no offence, but I want to try things another way, I'm going off, don't know if or when I'll be back." Descension is more of a peaceful choice, than a radical choice or punishment.

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2008-04-30 4:28
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Post: #9
Re: Demons and Fallen
Gesigewigus Wrote:But all myths about YHWH, really are about reality, just ignore the cranky old man who hates foreskin :-p So totally not what I believe, just cynically agreeing with you point, and essentially posting responses I've gotten to similar comments in the past.

This occured to me as I wrote the above, with the very big caveat that just because someone somewhere says "Yeah, *I* know the REAL Original Big Man Upstairs Who Made Everything!" and someone else says, "Nuh huh, *I* know him, and he's not like the bloke you describe!" it does not mean that a) either of the myths have any connection to each other beyond some guy somewhere wondering what makes the universe tick, or b) that either of the myths have any connection to the real Big Man Upstairs, should such a person even exist.

While I find it interesting to compare different mythologies and see what common ground there is, and perhaps try to work out what the original truth behind it was - at the end of the day, sometimes different myths do genuinely describe different things . . . and sometimes myths are just metaphor and fiction.

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas

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2008-04-30 17:26
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Post: #10
Re: Demons and Fallen
Archer Wrote:While I find it interesting to compare different mythologies and see what common ground there is, and perhaps try to work out what the original truth behind it was - at the end of the day, sometimes different myths do genuinely describe different things . . . and sometimes myths are just metaphor and fiction.

And that my dear, is why Joseph Campbell should be on Altars everywhere. Hehe.

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As we grow all things are external.
As we learn all things are internal.
As we understand all things are not.
2008-05-01 3:04
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