Defining order and chaos

Freetha Wrote:

Seraphyna Wrote:I see chaos as randomness, disorder and order as having a pattern and near predictability to it.

Seraphyna Wrote:To go further, chaos is that which lacks any predictability, has no pattern to it, is random. Order is that which is patterned and is predictable. Chaos is more volatile while order is more stable.

The thing with this is that practically everything that exists has some structure, some order, some pattern of being. Even the pattern in which the raindrops fall is structured. There's little, if anything at all, that exists, that "is" chaotic. So where does this balance come in? If the overwhelming majority of everything follows a patter, a structure, adheres to causality, then where's the chaos?

And this is exactly why I have my own definition for chaos and order. Change and Stability. Whenever something changes, that thing is experiencing chaos. When something stays the same, then that is order.

Deros Wrote:

Freetha Wrote:

Seraphyna Wrote:I see chaos as randomness, disorder and order as having a pattern and near predictability to it.

Seraphyna Wrote:To go further, chaos is that which lacks any predictability, has no pattern to it, is random. Order is that which is patterned and is predictable. Chaos is more volatile while order is more stable.

The thing with this is that practically everything that exists has some structure, some order, some pattern of being. Even the pattern in which the raindrops fall is structured. There's little, if anything at all, that exists, that "is" chaotic. So where does this balance come in? If the overwhelming majority of everything follows a patter, a structure, adheres to causality, then where's the chaos?

And this is exactly why I have my own definition for chaos and order. Change and Stability. Whenever something changes, that thing is experiencing chaos. When something stays the same, then that is order.

Only that's not a definition for "chaos and order" but "change and stability".
Using your own, personal, definitions for words that already have definitions can (and usually does) easily lead to miscommunication.

Deros Wrote:And this is exactly why I have my own definition for chaos and order. Change and Stability. Whenever something changes, that thing is experiencing chaos. When something stays the same, then that is order.

It could certainly make sense to look at "change" and "stability" as fundamental concepts, but they are not the same thing as order and chaos. That's why "order" is a different word from "stability", and "chaos" is a different word from "change".

Fundamentally, change can be very ordered - put your foot down and the speed of your car changes, but in a predictable, ordered, easily described manner.

Freetha Wrote:

Deros Wrote:And this is exactly why I have my own definition for chaos and order. Change and Stability. Whenever something changes, that thing is experiencing chaos. When something stays the same, then that is order.

Only that's not a definition for "chaos and order" but "change and stability".
Using your own, personal, definitions for words that already have definitions can (and usually does) easily lead to miscommunication.

What do we have to define words but words? Even in Sera's definition, it could be cut down to Chaos being randomness and Order being certainty.

Archer Wrote:It could certainly make sense to look at "change" and "stability" as fundamental concepts, but they are not the same thing as order and chaos. That's why "order" is a different word from "stability", and "chaos" is a different word from "change".

Fundamentally, change can be very ordered - put your foot down and the speed of your car changes, but in a predictable, ordered, easily described manner.

That's where they combine. When you change things, the reactions that are made to those changes are often very stable. Everytime you press your foot on the gas pedal while it's in drive, the car moves faster and gasoline is burned, creating carbon dioxide. Everytime you eat, food is broken down and the nutrients are absorbed into your body. Everytime someone is shot in the skull, that person dies. It is change and stability- chaos and order in everything. That's balance.

Furthermore, the english language is, quite frankly, very messed up when it comes to repeat definitions. That's why thesauruses exist.

Split because, as Sera pointed out, the topic had branched. If there are any other posts that belong here rather than in the Balancers thread, please link the individual ones to me (or another mod/admin) and we'll see what we can do about getting them where they belong.

-Val

Deros Wrote:

Freetha Wrote:

Deros Wrote:And this is exactly why I have my own definition for chaos and order. Change and Stability. Whenever something changes, that thing is experiencing chaos. When something stays the same, then that is order.

Only that's not a definition for "chaos and order" but "change and stability".
Using your own, personal, definitions for words that already have definitions can (and usually does) easily lead to miscommunication.

What do we have to define words but words? Even in Sera's definition, it could be cut down to Chaos being randomness and Order being certainty.

Archer Wrote:It could certainly make sense to look at "change" and "stability" as fundamental concepts, but they are not the same thing as order and chaos. That's why "order" is a different word from "stability", and "chaos" is a different word from "change".

Fundamentally, change can be very ordered - put your foot down and the speed of your car changes, but in a predictable, ordered, easily described manner.

That's where they combine. When you change things, the reactions that are made to those changes are often very stable. Everytime you press your foot on the gas pedal while it's in drive, the car moves faster and gasoline is burned, creating carbon dioxide. Everytime you eat, food is broken down and the nutrients are absorbed into your body. Everytime someone is shot in the skull, that person dies. It is change and stability- chaos and order in everything. That's balance.

Furthermore, the english language is, quite frankly, very messed up when it comes to repeat definitions. That's why thesauruses exist.

While these examples might work as metaphors for the balance between chaos and order, I don't see how they work as defintions for chaos and order. Chaos would be more you press your foot down on the gas pedal while it is in drive and you car becomes a butterfly as opposed to moving faster. That the car moves forward and does not become a butterfly is order.

Thesauruses exist because there are parrallels between the concepts and objects the words are used for and describe. This is one of the things I like about the english language. I hate some of the nuances that aren't there in one word.

rain

I'm slightly confused as to why my first post in this thread was moved as it applied to the conversation about seraphyna's balancers article first and foremost and it wasn't until Deros replied to that that we went off topic.

Offtopic: Is there a way to copy your post so it's in both threads?

Freetha Wrote:I'm slightly confused as to why my first post in this thread was moved as it applied to the conversation about seraphyna's balancers article first and foremost and it wasn't until Deros replied to that that we went off topic.

Seraphyna Wrote:Offtopic: Is there a way to copy your post so it's in both threads?

See, that's kinda the thing. I thought I remembered from my prior splitting experience that it asked whether to keep a shadow copy of the posts in the old topic. If it did, I didn't see where. I thought the first post here was relevant to both discussions.

I'll have a look and see what I can do with Free's post and with the one that Rain quoted.

-Val

no need, I copy/pasted, so is fixxed now