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A Draconically Angelic Correlation
chaitea
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Post: #1
A Draconically Angelic Correlation
One of the things I've looked into the most when playing about in the otherkin community was the parallels between dragons and angels. Regrettably (for me) much of what i had compiled is either hanging back in my head or lost to me. Nevertheless, i still had this hanging out in my yahoo note pad:


I personally wouldn't go as far as to say that dragons and angels are one in the same, but the similarities are indeed striking.

In Chinese legends, some dragons can be persevered as the equivalent to angels:
Chinese dragons are strongly associated with water in popular belief. They are believed to be the rulers of moving bodies of water, such as waterfalls, rivers, or seas. Because of this association, they are seen as "in charge" of water-related weather phenomenon.

In particular the five toed golden/yellow celestial dragon:
The dragon, especially yellow or golden dragons with five claws on each foot, was a symbol for the emperor in many Chinese dynasties. At the end of his reign, the first legendary Emperor Huang Di was said to have been immortalized into a dragon that resembled his emblem, and ascended to Heaven.


***

Many angels (be it an individual or a gaggle of 'em) have been referred to as dragons, in particular the seraphim. The ancient book of Enoch in its original Greek text reconfirms the Hebrew scriptures that the Seraphim are indeed winged reptilian creatures, that are simply referred to as "dragons" in many other Biblical scriptures.

Num. 21:6
Quote:So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

(Seraph is translated "fiery flying serpent" from the Hebrew and is the word used for the serpents that bit the Israelites in the wilderness)

Hebrew translation of the word Seraphim, means "fiery flying serpents" or "dragons", which would explain the many references to "dragons" in the Bible, singing praises to God in Psalms and Satan, of course, never a "fallen" humanoid angel, but one of the highest of Heavenly creatures, a "Seraphim-dragon".

More specific examples of the Fallen Angel, Lucifer, being referred to as a dragon:
Revelation
Quote:20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation
Quote:12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Some brief associates for thought.

(Warning: getting controversial here)
Despite the evidence, some modern Christians refuse to accept the true translation, and incorrectly give the Seraphim a human form, largely due to the winged human dieties of pagan Greece and Rome which so influence Roman Catholicism. But the ancient book of Enoch in its original Greek text reconfirms the Hebrew scriptures that the Seraphim are indeed winged reptilian creatures, that are simply referred to as "dragons" in many other Biblical scriptures.

To hit a possibility up from a religious standpoint: the Serpahim dragons of the Bible may be evidence of a "long creation" and a compatibility between Christianity and modern scientific theories about the origin of the Earth. In the remarkable Creation Epic of Genesis, exactly like evolution, life on earth originates in the sea, and also like evolution, first there are fish, then the great "Monsters", (dinosaurs), then birds, mammals and finally man. The only disparity is that Christians translate "day" literally, and it could be translated into 6 "epochs" each encompassing millions of years.

So what does this have to to with Seraphim? The Bible describes them as "dragons", and many Christians use this word to also mean "dinosaurs". So if there were actually a "long" creation compatible with the fossil record, perhaps God decided to have his first servant creatures millions of years before mankind would appear on the earth, and chose to give greater intelligence to some prehistoric, winged, dragon-like pterosaur, to be his earliest servants and this is why there are references to intelligent, even talking winged, fire spewing "dragons", not only in the Bible, but in the myths and legends from around the world.

This could also explain Satan's behavior and motives as detailed in other ancient scriptures no longer recognized by the Church of Rome, in which after millions of years as the only intelligent creatures, his race of Seraphim-dragons were told they must now serve the newly created mankind and he refused.

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2008-02-13 4:04
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Shyrokino
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Post: #2
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
Usually when I hear something that would say that dragons are angels I get all up in arms about how they are not and that the two kin types are seperate. I still do think so but based on what you have come up with here I like it. Perhaps going on along with this God created the Seraph who are serpent like and then later durning the time of the dinosaurs he created just plain dragons. Just a thought since I'm trying to use your theroy and still make it probable that angels and dragons are seprate.

(came back to make it a bit more coherant)
2008-02-13 4:47
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Malakoi
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Post: #3
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
Makes sense to me. Especially as most people think of Seraphim as having multiple sets of wings which, on a humanoid body, doesn't really work.

Also, I remember reading that Cherubim were more like monstrous creatures than humanoid-forms. Some of them were like Chimeras or something - lion heads, etc.

I'll look it up and see what I can find.

All in all, though, I buy it. My friend and I are learning Greek and going over small passages of the Bible and, needless to say, we're amazed by the amount of distortion that comes with translation.

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2008-02-13 19:48
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scars
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Post: #4
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
Personally i've had no problem mixing creationism with evolution, after all what is a day to god?. Plus to my knowlege many of the older angels had other forms, dragons being one of them, e.g lucifer, samael, belial and such like.
2008-02-13 21:59
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Silyon
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Post: #5
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
I'd say that most dragons are not angels, and vice-versa. That doesn't mean that angels, being energetic beings and shape shifters by nature, can't take a draconic form, however.

I do think that there is some kind of connection between dragons and Angels, but I wouldn't say we are angels. Perhaps kind of enlisted to guard something or other, since dragons in general are usually seen as guarding something outside of their immediate family and territory.
2008-02-13 22:04
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Myenia
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Post: #6
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
I had read your theories on OKA a while back, and was a big fan of the notion, and reading this, even more so. It is definately something I had incorporated into my home-made belief system, and I'm glad to hear some more depth to it that I can consider. I see no reason that dragons, which (as far as I've been lead to understand) are celestials, are in some cases angels. Angels are celestials...so, some dragons were created to serve God, and some to serve...whatever. Water sources, maybe. Everyone seems to focus too much on the fact that they think some could be both, but they are still mostly seperate. The fundimental definition of an angel is something that was made to serve God, right? Its not about the creature's makeup, just about their job description.
2008-02-21 2:50
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Tzolkin
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Post: #7
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
The concept you've got here is nothing short of awesome. It makes so much sense. ^^ I'll have to delay commenting more on it until tomorrow though, when I'm more lucid. <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- sTongue -->

~Tzolkin
2008-02-22 8:29
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chaitea
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Post: #8
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
I have just always been fascinated by connections that can be drawn in regards to a species as a whole.

When it comes to humans, there are several constants that can be seen in near every human society/culture (no matter how remote and cut off from the rest). Some brief examples: a flood story, a higher creative power, royal bloodlines, ect.
Two other big ones are the mere presence of both dragons and angels (of sorts) that can also be found.

That is where I start the connection from. Two concepts which are near as old and consistent through various forms of story, art, and/or orally passed down from ages past continue to have such a firm impact on even today’s societies.

Not only are they similar in that regard but (as I went into earlier) similarities in both their actions and presentation are also evident. Not to imply that angels carry off maidens to caves or that dragons delight in playing a harp and wearing a dress, mind you. Just that there is an underline link to one another in other ways.

Sadly, I don’t have the entirety of that write up available to me, but I still have to means to strike it up again. But in the meantime, I do love food for thought along this subject.

(I wanted to end there, but then I went and thought about Myenia’s post)

One of my theories on why so many kin get caught between the rift of weather they’re angelic or draconic otherkin goes a long with how the two are so fundamentally connected. It’s easy to have a mix-up when you start off with so little to go on when first coming to terms with a kinship, followed by placing it. It’s much harder to choose weather one is an apple or a pair when all you have to go on is that you’re sweet as hell but have seeds in your core.

Furthermore, I know I love connecting these two kin types but don’t think I get to forget about all those differences. As similar as they are, and as much as they can both be depicted to serve their respective higher power, they each do such in their own unique ways.

We see angels carrying out a will and delivering the ‘word’ or judgment

While western dragons come across more as mercenaries, performing more round-about tasks while conceivably being tricked into thinking it’s serving their own gain (and sometimes it fully is, or they are even aware of it and thus quite peachy with the concept)

Eastern dragon’s are just funky in that they hang out down here acting all celestial, ascend up there to be all celestial (obviously, I lack having my past research on Eastern dragon mythos on hand, let alone in current memory). Also, it depends on the type of lung, but this is a generic basic concept I have to throw out about them at 3:30am EST.

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2008-02-22 8:38
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Valamezar
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Post: #9
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
The asian celestial dragon and the hebrew Seraphim are just the same - described in different cultures. There is even a different word around for Seraphim in the "Book of the Secrets of Enoch" where they are being called "Chalkadri" for example in 12.1: "And I looked and saw other flying creatures, their names phoenixes and chalkadri wonderful and strange in appearance, with the feet and tails of lions and the heads of crocodiles ..." - the term chalkadri is possibly a translation of the greek word "Chalchdrai" or so (my Greece is rusty): brazen hydras or serpents. They are classed with the Cherubim in Ethiopean Enoch xx.7.

Flying serpents are quite common in classical literature. See Herodot ii. 75; Lucan ix. 729-30; Ovid Met. v. 642-4; Valerius, Flaccus, Ammianus, Aelian, Apolllonius .... I did not read all that stuff, I merely quote Charles, R.H. in his commentary on the Chalkadri. This researcher presented two pages of evidences in classical literature about Seraphim or Chalkadri as being flying serpents, sometimes fiery ones and concludes that the original description Seraph was by then already lost when those authors described them - the class of angels I belong to. The oldest description is that we are flaming serpents, which is true for the egyptian origin of the description.

In china however celestial dragons are more elaborated - but it strikes that phoenixes (plural!) are seen with fiery serpents - a common symbolism in taoism where the phoenix resemble the female and the dragon the male side, or yin and yang. I have an amulet depicting yin and yang as dragon and phoenix.

Just to give a cent from my point of view. It had its reasons that I first outet myself as celestial dragon of asia - it was easiest to deal with (see I am a Panda and not an angel - thread).

If some people really see angels where others see only empty space, let them paint the angels. (John Ruskin, 1819 - 1900, english critic and writer)
2008-09-06 20:08
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Seraphyna
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Post: #10
Re: A Draconically Angelic Correlation
I definitely wouldn't say that all dragons are somehow angels and vice versa. However, there's definite crossover between the two especially in human mythos.

I have to say, though, that a humanoid form having many wings *is* indeed possible. Energetic beings with wings have wings that are basically energy constructs. Therefore, it is very conceivable for angels to have as many sets as they darn well please. It's not like they have a purely biological or evolutionary function as they would with dragons (if you believe that dragons are physical animals that exist somewhere in the multiverse), birds, etc.

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2008-09-06 20:34
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