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The Otherkin Phenomena • View topic - Balancers

Balancers

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Re: Balancers

Postby Miniar » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:55 pm

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Re: Balancers

Postby Seraphyna » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:25 pm

In this world, there is little chaos. It's hard to give definitive examples from earth because nature is so structured here (I mean you can apply math to a crap ton of it). I know that probably sounds like one big cop-out, it's not intended that way. Things I view as chaotic are pointed out to not be entirely chaotic, and I definitely see where people are coming from...but I still see aspects of things a good deal of you consider to be ordered to have chaos to them. I think at this point we might just have to agree to disagree and to accept that the confusion might just be there to some degree. Because at this point I feel that this is gonna be a circular conversation.

(OT: Holy crap we're on page 6)
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Re: Balancers

Postby Miniar » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:59 pm

[quote=Seraphyna]In this world, there is little chaos[/quote]
That's the thing. This world has an overwhelming majority of order over chaos and as such "should" be unbalanced and thus not functioning as it should, but here we are, still existing.
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Re: Balancers

Postby Iro » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:36 am

(Edit: Grumble, the window refreshed before I could finish typing. Trying this again.)

(To Freetha) What, you don't think "God" plays dice with the universe? The appearance of a pattern does not imply that there exists external to someone a pattern, but only implies the possibly ordered nature of the observer's mind. If we want to discuss this from the point of view of particle physics (one of several ways of looking at the rules of the universe), we could turn to physicists to aid us, but the further we probe the more we get into quantum mechanics. The further into quantum we go, the more abstracted we get and the less we (those here) are likely to understand. However, if I recall correctly, there is a contingent of quantum theorists out there that maintain the fundamental chaotic state of the universe.

For the sake of the argument, I'm going to ask our big question in a way in which I don't think it's been phrased. Bear with me, setting up the question will take several sentences (premises). Let us say that we have a "random number generator." By this I don't mean a machine that has an algorithm or whatever. Instead, this RNG is a completely arbitrary and potentially quasi-existing "thing" that, at our "time" of encounter, provides us with a string of twelve numbers. In short, something utterly random producing something rather ordered. This string of numbers need not actually be a string of numbers; rather, what the RNG does/creates appears to us as numbers. Let's further say that the numbers arbitrarily generated produce a sequence, sum, or other arithmetic entity that we deem significant - the Fibonacci sequence, 5, 616 (or 666 for those traditionalists out there with your textual errors), 626, a lottery number and date, a social security number with three extra somehow important digits, part of pi or e, or even your height and weight in whatever units of measurement you want. It needn't matter what the "numbers" come out to be, only that you observe something "significant" about them. It needn't matter how the RNG works (also arbitrary), only that it produces for us a collection of "numbers." How much of this is us assigning order to our environment where there is none, how much of this is us projecting order onto the environment (creating order from nothing), and how much of this is order actually present in the system?

From a physical standpoint on grounds anyone with basic understanding of physics can understand, entropy (the "random motion of particles"/disorder in the system/heat) will take on a uniform appearance to outsiders over time. When all energy in the universe converts its form into entropy, the universe will be nothing but vibrating particles which, if dispersed equally, would produce a static level of heat. The particles wouldn't likely be dispersed evenly, so there could be pockets of heat and cold, given the expansion of the universe and the motion. In either case, there is "order" - uniform heat or recognizable spots. However, the original meaning of "entropy" as "disorder in a system" (from the Greek "in transition"). Perhaps it is an inappropriate word.

My thought, however, is that no matter how we slice it, the words come back to being abstractions created by observers to explain their observations - that is, they are dependent on observers, they represent an "anthropological" element (at least to the minds of humans; I lack an adjective to describe entities aware of both self and environment). If, however, we assume that there is existence and that existence isn't static, as we are in this discussion, then we are assuming the existence of energy. In such a reality, there need be no observers, though that wouldn't stop energy from existing. To this end, what makes this energy inherently ordered or chaotic?
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Re: Balancers

Postby Archer » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:39 pm

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Re: Balancers

Postby Ges » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:58 am

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As we grow all things are external.
As we learn all things are internal.
As we understand all things are not.
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Re: Balancers

Postby Archer » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:29 pm

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Re: Balancers

Postby Seraphyna » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:51 pm

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Re: Balancers

Postby Ges » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:53 am

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As we grow all things are external.
As we learn all things are internal.
As we understand all things are not.
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Re: Balancers

Postby Seraphyna » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:18 pm

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